HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by tonyoci » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:27 am

The Toneport can do the DI thing by itself can't it. Most amps have that little DI slider on the top right that controls how much of the DI signal is included. I'm assuming you guys mean recording two tracks but I'm not sure how much difference it makes in the end.

My bass patch was an accident, I tried a POD FARM preset and didn't own the amp and got a great sound :)
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by chckn8r » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:41 am

tonyoci wrote:The Toneport can do the DI thing by itself can't it. Most amps have that little DI slider on the top right that controls how much of the DI signal is included. I'm assuming you guys mean recording two tracks but I'm not sure how much difference it makes in the end.
I think it's really a control issue for those who obsess about bass tone ;)

Nah, it's a couple of things - the direct tone does usually have a lot more of the percussive stuff in it, while the amp gives the tone more of the bottom end character. Having the direct tone also gives you a chance to re-amp or other wonky stuff.

I just got a new bass (1st one) for my B-Day, so I'm starting to get into all this fun ... it's unfortunately come at a bad time as it's distracting me from my other work... :roll:
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by Dave Watson » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:43 am

Lynn - Dave Cooper
This song had a nice easy feel and the guitar and voice were well balanced with just the right touch of reverb. I liked the chorus ooh's and arrh's, partly because I can never do that effectively. The other thing that worked really well was the whistled break, nice and accurate and adding a fine touch of insouciance. 8)

Whilst nothing to do with the performance at all the song did provoke a reaction that I often get with lyrics that are straight on the money homages to the little lady. Somehow it feels to me like I'm intruding in someone elses intimacy. :oops: I am more comfortable with love expressed though metaphors, or perhaps with less full on sincerity. It is presumably my problem, but I did get that feeling with this one. It's another compliment to the song that it communicated that level of intimacy. :D

With regard to Dave Butterworth as an idea, whatever will happen to the Tones?
The Dave's doesn't have the clever play on words, so give it up Tony.
Get over not being a Dave... :(

B!tch - Dave Chick
I loved this song, it's great... 8) not all girl's are loved forever :shock: . The level of production is just awesome and all the guitars appear to be on some warping trip that works really well. The instrumental break was truly outstanding and... do you give lessons Dave? I saw your earlier remarks that we would have a good time in the pub but frankly I'd rather have a lesson in effects over a pint. The one thing that I felt I would crit was just that the lyrics were a little set back and I found myself struggling a few times to get what was said. They were very good and clever lyrics and deserved to stand forward more. I liked the suppressed anger in the voice but couldn't shake of the image you set earlier by saying you might 'just sound constipated'. Talk about setting yourself up for a fall... I think you sounded angry about the girl, but holy crapper... :roll:

Plus, I have an :idea: for the Chckn8r, given the success of FCUK as a brand I can't help but feel that B!tch would make a great brand for those firebrand fashion concious women. I see a cartoon female head with a huge wide mouth in which the word makes the logo. I'd get the trademark quick and get it onto some clothes...! ;)

Kathleen and the Silver Screen
Well I won't bore you by reviewing my own song, but I'll offer a few reactions!
Just a thank you firstly for the supportive comments made on the show and in the forum.
Several posters suggested that the sax at the end was set too far back in the mix. I have to say for me this was the most difficult decision of the recording because it was my first sample from Realband where the instrument took the lead focus of the listener, rather than just providing some fill detail. It still seems/seemed like cheating to introduce these samples and as a consequence I think it affected my confidence to give it prominence. :oops: Anyway now my guilt is waning I agree with the posters and will lift the sax in a future mix update on the Soundclick site.

These real phrases work best, and it seems to me are musically justified, when used to provide fill detail in a song. In 'Arms Enfold Me' the pedal steel is a discreet background and the resonator guitar would be missed by distracted listeners. Again, the fiddle does take a prominent lead break and I agonised over that, for the same reasons as the sax. In the end it sounded so good I just had to leave it in, just for the lovely textured ending. When would I ever get together a band like that in the real world...!

There was one other thing I wanted some help on actually, people said they liked the effect on the acoustic but I have to say it was not quite what I intended. I wanted to 'double up' the acoustic to make it fill the sound stage better and so took two mono copies and put one left and one right. I was then told to slightly shift the one copy (in time) so that it sounded like two separate guitars but in tight sync. I've heard this effect done by others to great effect. In my case I got a variety of what can be best described as cheap reverb effects. What was I missing :?:
Is there a good VST (free...) effect for 'spatialising' an acoustic guitar that someone would recommend? :?:
Anyhow, thanks to all the posters, not only for listening, but taking the time to give feedback.

Power to the Dave's, oh and Tones...
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by The Cracks » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:55 am

Dave (don't everyone turn their heads at once), I watched the Police DVD. It was good. I didn't realize they burned out the way they did. I thought they just fizzled. But it was a real decision to end, with goodbyes and everything.
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by criddlerus » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:21 am

The Cracks wrote:Dave (don't everyone turn their heads at once), I watched the Police DVD. It was good. I didn't realize they burned out the way they did. I thought they just fizzled. But it was a real decision to end, with goodbyes and everything.
Glad you liked it. I just read the Andy Summer's bio. They kind of knew that Sting had outgrown the band before Synchronicity. I think they were really like brothers, fighting and all but still staying together. That movie was a good slice of what the rock n' roll life would be like.
Dave Watson wrote:Is there a good VST (free...) effect for 'spatialising' an acoustic guitar that someone would recommend? :?:
Try the Ambience reverb. Very nice program that gives great, real sounding spaces. Play with smaller reverb sized to make some space.

http://magnus.smartelectronix.com/#effects
Dave Watson wrote:do you give lessons Dave? I saw your earlier remarks that we would have a good time in the pub but frankly I'd rather have a lesson in effects over a pint.
Just to throw my two cents in here; I had a mentor as such when i started recording. He was a pro who had recorded both in studios and at home. I found that his suggestions didn't help me much in reality. You just have to make educated guesses as to how to get good sounds and repeat until you get it right. There is nothing like experience in the end. Mr. Chick has recorded hours and hours and hours of music and you can hear it. It is hard to learn otherwise and nothing is a substitution for repetition.

However, you need to be learning more and improving as you go along. One book that helped me a lot was Bobby Owsinski's - The Recording Engineer's Handbook. Also check your local library. Here is a link to that book:
http://www.amazon.com/Recording-Engine ... 932929002
chckn8r wrote:Nah, it's a couple of things - the direct tone does usually have a lot more of the percussive stuff in it, while the amp gives the tone more of the bottom end character. Having the direct tone also gives you a chance to re-amp or other wonky stuff.
Good bass sound is really important to bring your recordings to the next level (if that is your goal). Dave described it well. Having the option to mix the percussive DI and warm amp sound is really important. The Toneport can do a good job, but taking the time and effort to do the real thing will pay off. Also, understanding the real thing can help you make better Toneport patches.

Great comments folks!

The REAL Dave 8)
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by Zoetrope » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:06 am

criddlerus wrote:I have done the mic the amp + DI thing before and the two sounds do compliment each other very well.
Ah, but have you taped a lavalier mic to the body of the bass guitar yet? That's when you know you've lost your mind (or you're a pro. Same thing).

As for my hair, I bought this wig at Goodwill, next to the shoes, so I know what I'm saying when I say you could have chosen a better pair. The pink polka dots just aren't you, and Tony was too polite to say anything about it. These Brits!

Back on topic, while I think blending a DI and a mic on an amp is a noble endeavor, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the only thing a pickup on an acoustic guitar should be used for is a live performance where setting up mics would for some reason not be possible. I'd much sooner spend my time finding the sweet spot for one mic, or if I really had the time set up two mics in different spots with different tones, and blend those, rather than blend the pickup with a mic, or (the horror) only use the pickup. But that's just me, and I'm having a bad wig day, so take it with a grain of your favorite spice.
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by Sungodv » Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:31 am

Zoetrope wrote:

As for my hair, I bought this wig at Goodwill, next to the shoes...
Why am I getting the impression that that wig is way too tight.......?


:P


That that!
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by tonyoci » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:03 am

Dave Watson,

The simple answer to your question, in my opinion, is that you offset them by too much. The second track needs to just be moved the tiniest of touches, moving it too much will create that echo effect.
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by The Cracks » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:06 am

criddlerus wrote:
The Cracks wrote:Dave (don't everyone turn their heads at once), I watched the Police DVD. It was good. I didn't realize they burned out the way they did. I thought they just fizzled. But it was a real decision to end, with goodbyes and everything.
Glad you liked it. I just read the Andy Summer's bio. They kind of knew that Sting had outgrown the band before Synchronicity. I think they were really like brothers, fighting and all but still staying together. That movie was a good slice of what the rock n' roll life would be like.
The Real Dave,

I was pleasantly surprised not to see a lot of wild parties and drugs. It may have happened a bit, but I don't think it was central to that outfit.

Also, about the bickering, etc. As an American, I've noticed that the British are hard on each other. A lot of "f*** off" and such. Not just the Police but other bands as well. I remember reading about the row between Elton John and Keith Richards. Brutal stuff. The great thing about the British is they can tell you to go to Hell in the most polite and proper way. :D Having said that, Americans are rather rough on each other as well. The only difference is we pull out a gun and blow the other guy away. :cry:
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by chckn8r » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:47 pm

tonyoci wrote:The simple answer to your question, in my opinion, is that you offset them by too much. The second track needs to just be moved the tiniest of touches, moving it too much will create that echo effect.
Ditto - we're talking in the realm of a couple hundred samples and/or 10's of milliseconds here.

You had the right idea, but I think you need to really zoom in on the waveforms, turn off the snap or latch to grid function and move one of those waveforms over a touch to see if it works out - then adjust accordingly.

You'll probably encounter some comb-filtering effects where the waveforms start cancelling each other out/enhancing each other at different frequencies. Just keep nudging one back and forth to minimize and when they're panned hard right and left, it'll be less noticeable.
criddlerus wrote:Just to throw my two cents in here; I had a mentor as such when i started recording. He was a pro who had recorded both in studios and at home. I found that his suggestions didn't help me much in reality.
Can't stress that enough. I'd recommend going to a class or two when you're first starting out, but you've definitely gotten some great recording chops right now - it's just a matter of fiddling and doing exactly what you're doing right now ... asking specific questions and trying it out.
Zoetrope wrote:As for my hair, I bought this wig at Goodwill, next to the shoes,
Why not try the official haircut of middle-aged-Dave's: a clipper with the #1 attachment all over. I don't think I've touched a comb in the past 8 years or so ... which is slightly less than my track record for showering mind you.

Yet another "real" Dave
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by Chris C » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:58 pm

Lynn - Good solid song. The whistling and background vocals are just right. It would be easy to overdo, I think. But is was enough to keep in interesting.

Bitch - Well done. Not my favorite style of music, but I really like what you did with the various textures. Nice touches.

Kathleen and the Silver Screen - Really nice song. Like with others, I like the arrangement a lot. Adding the percussion later in the song is nice. Weird thing - the sax seemed out of place to me, but listening again, I think it's only because I knew it was 'artificial'. If I didn't know that in advance, I think I'd really like. Another good solid song.

I just read the Andy Summer's bio. They kind of knew that Sting had outgrown the band before Synchronicity. I think they were really like brothers, fighting and all but still staying together. That movie was a good slice of what the rock n' roll life would be like.
I'm with Dave! I'd recommend this book, too. I like the Police, but was never a huge fan, I just happened to see it in the library. He's had a pretty amazing career - he doesn't spend all that much time on the Police or his later solo career. He's older than I thought, 10 years or so older than the other two. He's a contemporary of Eric Clapton - even played in the Animals for a time. Good read.
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by Zoetrope » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:42 am

I think I'm going to give in to peer pressure and read this Police bio, although I always thought "The Police" was an awful name for a rock band.
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Re: HMHS 141 - A Whole Lotta Daves (12/12/08)

Post by famouspatrick » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:21 am

Where's Famous? Once again, I am a week (or two) late and a dollar short. No excuses; I listen to the show, take notes, and then don't post them. It's kind of like writing a check for the utility bill and leaving it on the table and not mailing it in. You only realize it when the lights go out. Anyway, it's the day after Xmas and I'm posting for the "Daves" show and the "Dave-less" show. Merry merry and happy happy to you all.

Lynn - Dave Cooper: Very nice, sweet song. I like the simple arrangement, direct lyrics, and very heartfelt performance. Good one.

The "focus" thing: Zeroing in on the main "point," be it lyrical or musical, is the hard part for a lot of songwriters. I tend to cut more than I record, because I ramble. Good tip, Dave.

Singing clearly and annunciating: This goes to style; you have to find your voice, both as a singer, and as a writer. There are great singers who's lyrics can be clearly understood (James Taylor, John Lennon, Dolly Parton, etc.), and those that slur everything together or bury it in music(Mick Jagger, Emmylou Harris, etc.). I think that if the lyrics are important to your song, you should make them understandable. (End of Old Fart editorial)

Not putting everything into your vocal: Well, isn't the solution to practice the song before you record it? I prepare for recording a vocal the same way I would if I was going to sing it on a national TV show. I practice the phrasing, the breathing, and make sure the words flow. Then, when I record, I imagine I am on stage at an arena full of people who came to hear me sing and really want to enjoy it. I imaging I am playing with a live band with great musicians who want to make me sound good. My intonation might be bad, but my heart's in it everytime, and a great performance is different than a perfect performance. At the risk of repeating myself, everything should serve the song.

Home Recording Show: One of my favorite shows. These guys do great segments, but my favorite parts are the converasations between the segments. They don't have a forum, so they don't get much feedback. I have left a couple of comments on the blog, and they have responded both in email and on the show. I encourage everyone to give those guys a listen.

Bitch - Dave Chick: Man, I love stuff like this! I doubt if I will ever be able to do anything with so many parts, so well put together. I love it when someone does it well, and Chickn8tr is one of the best. I'm smiling.

5 ?'s - Dave Watson: Very nice. A good window into your roots and process. I got some good tips from it.

Girl Shaped Love Drug: Pleasant and harmless. The analysis was cogent and enjoyable. Nothing to add.

Realband software: I have been a user of Band in a Box for three years, and they've improved the product greatly,while keeping the cost reasonable. I usually use it just to get a quick sketch of an arrangement, then replace most of the parts with my playing later. However, they have improved the product to the point where I can just use fader moves and a little cutting to make it sound like a good performance. Also, a great tool for learning. It's well worth visiting the PGMusic site to learn more.

Kathleen and the Silver Screen - Dave Watson: I would have liked to have had the 5 questions right before this, instead of breaking it up. The song is very nice, reminding me of something the early Kinks might have done. Well recorded, and tasty use of Realband sax at the end. Very touching.

These are the Daves I know, I know, these are the Daves I know. - New Kids on the Block
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