HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by Grandma Melonhead » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:41 pm

The Songs
Some strong, professional songs this week and recently . Dave, it was very nice to hear your song in its demo state. It's funny how effectively we can sing sometimes when we aren't trying to. I always think of George Harrison. His demo of “While my guitar Gently weeps” was about 45 times more emotionally engaging then the version that appeared on the Beatle record. Also in the movie let it be, you can hear Harrison presenting "I me mine" to the other beatles for the first time and, for me, it was a high point of that whole sad project.

The guitar on Tony's song made it sound rather modern. Strong song.

I quite liked the grooves on "Nobody Needs Love" and the song overall. Nice rhythm guitar. And yay, this episode has a girl! It wasn't the girl doing the recording, though. Are there any home recordists who are also girls?!? (my mother is a professional musician and she cant work a microphone.) Has there been discussion about this before? I did a search thru the hmhs forum to see and all I found for the word 'girl' was a lot of jokey comments by men like “the girls will be falling at my feet when they hear this song.”

(Also, are we all 40+?)

Why do we do this?
Back when it took financial backing to put any thing out, I used to wonder how many creative people were producing great work that was never put out there. Now thanks to the easy, free and searchable distribution of the internet, we know that we were only seeing the tip of the iceberg before. This is a great thing about the internet and I agree with you , Tony about the benefits of the exposure and interaction of the internet.

The other side of this however is that since the internet, we all expect to get everything for free (or very very cheap) and that is changing the shape of a lot of industries. In certain professions, such as photography, the vast hobbiest presence is actually making it harder for the professionals to make a living. Many hobbiests seem thrilled to have their photos used in, say, an ad campaign where they get an automatic 30 cent kickback from the site they uploaded it too. In some areas, it might end up where only hobbiests can afford to produce work. Music doesnt seem to be going that way though, at least yet.
[end of rant]

Another great promise of the internet is the elimination of the middleman. With him gone an artist could conceivable make a living selling his CD as downloadable for a couple of bucks or less. As far as i know that hasnt really worked yet. Without the middle man doing things llike advertising and buying airtime, there is no efficient way for people to discover the music they like in this vast sea of myspace and soundclick etc.

Playing our songs for vetting by others.
Again I feel similarly. What can someone really say about a given song for advice. Sometimes you can give technical advice, but even that might fall in the realm of taste. "Sounds great, highhat is too loud," isnt really that helpful. Anyway what does anyone else know about where you are going with your stuff?
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by ornaith » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:00 pm

Well! As it happens, I'm a home recording nut, a woman, AND under forty.... :)
I'm trying to think of others that I know.. I can think of one or two.. but we are probably rare enough, I suppose.
I've been lurking around for a while, having forgotten my login, but now I am back. (I had a song "Said and Unsaid" on the show a while back.)
Tony, I think you're spot-on about the financial aspect of things. I think it's fairly unlikely that any home recording artist without (a) a personal fortune to spend on pro marketing, or (b) a live band that's willing to play in every and any toilet venue for years , will make any money out of their songs. I get a lot of pleasure out of knowing that (a few) people are enjoying my songs, especially when they pay me compliments (who wouldn't, right?), and perhaps even more pleasure out of listening to a song I've done and thinking "yeah, this is fecking brilliant." That'll do.
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by davecooper » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:23 pm

:lol:

Midnight Sun

This has got a touch of Peter Green’s Fleetwood Mac. Excellent guitar work and the vocals were good too.


Baby Doll

Good catchy song that has some good grungy guitar – diferent from dave – nice sound effects.

Excellent vocals from Dena and some intricate fitting gfuitar from Andrew - I like this song reminds me a little of the theme tune to Taggart a Scottish detective series – nothing wrong with that.

The Noisettes song sounds like an early Spector type recording – a bit Helen Shapiro’ish – very early sixties – it’s all coming back again.


I do actually sell songs for less that 50 cents or so and it gives me a buzz if someone buys a one or pays for a listen but I’ve no ambition to be a superstar but to know someone is listening is all I need to carry on doing what I do, even if no-one buys I do it because I like it not for profit.

Red Uniform

What a subject that was really clever – yes thoses guys get a bum deal. God song clever lyrics throughout well done
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by fabkebab » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:37 pm

ornaith wrote:Well! As it happens, I'm a home recording nut, a woman, AND under forty.... :)
I'm trying to think of others that I know.. I can think of one or two.. but we are probably rare enough, I suppose.
I've been lurking around for a while, having forgotten my login, but now I am back. (I had a song "Said and Unsaid" on the show a while back.)
Tony, I think you're spot-on about the financial aspect of things. I think it's fairly unlikely that any home recording artist without (a) a personal fortune to spend on pro marketing, or (b) a live band that's willing to play in every and any toilet venue for years , will make any money out of their songs. I get a lot of pleasure out of knowing that (a few) people are enjoying my songs, especially when they pay me compliments (who wouldn't, right?), and perhaps even more pleasure out of listening to a song I've done and thinking "yeah, this is fecking brilliant." That'll do.
Me and Dena are both under 40 too (although I only have 6 months left!) - Also I should Add that she also did her own vocal recording and mixes a lot of her own things :-)
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by Polly » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:36 pm

* Tony's new song. Midnight Sun - The Tones. Vocals especially good here. You do more in 4 hours than I can manage in 4 days. Do you have a time machine? :?

* Baby Doll - Dave Criddle. Dave's one minute song. I'm not sure I see the point of doing this, An artists does a sketch in preparation for a fuller, finished piece of work. This was good and I'd like to hear it finshed. Its like a sampler, it made me want the full size product. Crazy synth work! great fun.

* Tony's comments on how we're doing this for fun and shouldn't stress the details of a song too much - and I actually liked the song! There is a genre referred to in the UK as Northern Soul, its mostly obscure upbeat 60s soul which is not Motown. That's the genre Winehouse seems to be tapping into (though in the south of England I think they just called it R&B back in the 70s (I'm not sure). I like this but -then again - it is a copy of a genre that died out in its first incarnation 40 years ago. Almost totally devoid of originality for that reason. Or maybe there are no new new genres to be created and all that's left is mixing up the old ingredients with a new touch of mono sodium glutamate to catch a jaded musical palate.

* The non-monetary "value" of home songwriting. I came to the forum thread too late to read it all, so I read a bit. It's not a debate that interests me that much today. I'm happy to put music on the internet for nothing just so folk will hear it. If I could get someone to hear it who could sell it to someone else I'd take the money and lie on a beach. I don't get your point Tony old bean. You'd take a million but not a thousand? I accept that there are many benefits in addition to money to writing and recording songs, but that's no reason not to add money to the list even if its only your 'wish list'.

Lee Swzast (sp?) is on the money. It's a young (wo)man's game. When you got responsibilties you can't go all out to be a rock star.

I write songs because I like singing 'em. I like the applause and I like seeing people's and hearing their comments and qustions after I've got off stage. My wife is proud of me for doing this. And that's an odd one!

I record them 'cos I like to get a 'proper' version - to listen to and show people what it would sound like if I had a backing band, backing singers and a studio to develop my song idea further. At my recent 50th birthday party one of my son's 18 year old mates came on to the stage and asked me to sing a song I'd written that he liked. he was quite shy and needed moral support to approach me. I accused him of patronising an old fart but he isisted, sincerely I believe, that he just thought it was a good song. He has my CD. Which I made to sell at my occasional gigs. I made 150 CDs and I've got rid of/sold half of them. I'm gonna make another but it's gonna be free/donation at my gigs.

Nobody Needs Love - Andrew Richardson & Dena Porras. This is good all round and Dena - great voice. You make the process sound quite haphazard but the finished product is great.

Red Uniform - John Meadows. Made for the HMHS; there very few outlets for this subject matter but that said - trekkie conventions would bite your hand off for this. Run it by somone; unless any measure of success offends your purist principles; this is great and deserves a bigger audience. Reject that monastic vow of poverty, cash in on this baby!
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by Polly » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:42 pm

Grandma Melonhead wrote: Scratch that. It just appeared.
No it didn't just appear, you thought about it and Zoetrope makes things appear by thought transference. Give the guy credit.

Grandma Melonhead wrote: I wonder is is this a sexual thing. Like furries or something.
I think you'll find "furries" are Tribbles...

To give the species it's correct title... ;)

Not a great episode...
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by mbrane » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:37 pm

Red Uniform - John Meadows. Made for the HMHS; there very few outlets for this subject matter but that said - trekkie conventions would bite your hand off for this. Run it by somone; unless any measure of success offends your purist principles; this is great and deserves a bigger audience. Reject that monastic vow of poverty, cash in on this baby!
Thanks for your comments on my song! Hopefully, "biting my hand off" is a positive expression. :)

As for my purist principles, I wouldn't call myself a purist by any means -- if someone can make money off of song writing, no problem, everyone has to eat; on the other hand, I'm quite happy to do this kind of thing for fun, and I like niche subject matter: I'm working on a song called "Browser Wars", targeted at web geeks :)

John Meadows
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by Chris C » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:21 pm

Good show - very strong songs. I'm one of those who listens every week, but I don't always post every week.

The talk about money is interesting. I've come across the guys on Soundclick asking $2 for a song and wonder the same thing - do they really thing their song is 2x better than (pick any song on iTunes)?

And if anyone who is trying to make a career of it complains about those of us who give songs away for free, I'd say that if you are worried about about someone with a full time job and a family who spends maybe 6 hours a week on music cutting into your profits, you have a problem.

I think with the exception of someone with huge financial backing for marketing, etc, most of the income from a music career will have to come from playing live and selling merchandise. Also licensing music for ads, movies, TV, etc. I'm sure there will always be exceptions.

Anyway, good show!
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by Grandma Melonhead » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:32 am

Also I should Add that she also did her own vocal recording and mixes a lot of her own things :-)
Sorry, you said that in your intro didn't you?

Anyway, I'm glad there are some women around here. This place was getting rather sweaty.

Ornaith, I read your post and wondered if people in Boston say "feckin" too. The only place I have ever hear the word is here in Ireland. Then I went to your site and found that you are, of course, from Ireland (I guess the name should have given that away). It's funny cause I'm the opposite, an American living in Ireland.
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by Gu Djin » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:25 pm

"Midnight Sun" Good strong song, and I now get the sound, it has an early Moody Blues feel, who I only saw live once and this brought that trip back to mind.

"Baby doll" When I'm not sure about a song I sometimes try to imagine it beng sung by other artists and then come back to original, but with this one I couldn't think of anyone. But fun anyway.

"Nobody needs love" Nice production, nice to hear a female voice. Now I'll shut up about them for a few weeks.

"Noisettes" Pro song very early 60's sound. I remember that! Does that mean I wasn't really there? I was never really into Motown, but I found this very listenable.

Why, oh why. Well I think you've covered most of it. But do you get most pleasure from writing a song that works for you, or from perfecting the finished recording. Or maybe someone likes your song and wants to record it themselves. :?: :?:

"Red uniform" What fun and very clear. Wow I can hear every word.


Good show guys, very enjoyable.
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by Zoetrope » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:28 pm

Polly wrote:* Baby Doll - Dave Criddle. Dave's one minute song. I'm not sure I see the point of doing this, An artists does a sketch in preparation for a fuller, finished piece of work. This was good and I'd like to hear it finshed. Its like a sampler, it made me want the full size product. Crazy synth work! great fun.
Wow, this didn't feel like a sketch to me at all, just a solid 1 minute song. Having grown up on punk rock, a 1 minute song seems as normal to me as a 3 minute song, or a 10 minute song for that matter.
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by famouspatrick » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:01 pm

FamousPatrick lives:in the middle of April, I thought I was getting laid off so I started getting ready to finish a bunch of recordings in my downtime. I got several people to help with various songs so I could work on them between looking for work.

What actually happened was quite the opposite: I was given a new assignment by my company, which started before the old one ended. Since then I have been so overloaded that I just didn't have the energy to post anything coherent; until now, that is. Everything is starting to gel, and I don't see another big speed bump until October.

Although I haven't been posting, I have been listening to all the shows and enjoying the hell out of them. So, here's my thoughts (such as they are) on this week's show.

Midnight Sun - The Tones: I enjoyed this tune quite a bit. I like the chord progression and the arrangement, with the contrast between the verse and the chorus, and Tony's trademark doubled vocals. I have absolutely no idea what the chorus is about (WTF is the "summer of the midnight sun" anyway?), but the overall song is pleasant enough without understanding the lyric.

Questions of song structure: I have bought many books on writing songs, most of which deal with writing "hits." If one wants to write a hit song, then one has to adhere to the structures currently being used in whichever genre one is writing for. If writing a "hit" in a particular genre is not one's goal, then I think that ignoring traditional structure gives one a lot more freedom. I'm in total agreement with the Criddler on this one. "Cast off your chains! Embrace the freedom of a structureless song. Remember the Zappa!"

Sharing "Works in Progress:" I don't see the advantage to it. Unless you're planning to cowrite with someone (or you want to write "hits"), I don't see the advantage to asking for criticism before a song is done. Personally, I would rather write a song that pleased me, than to alter my song so other people like it but I don't.

Baby Doll - Dave Criddle: First, I am impressed by Dave's willingness to release a song without all of the post production and tweaks he usually does. I know it's hard for me to do it, but sometimes it just has to be done. I'm afraid I have to confess to not understanding this style, so I can't really comment on it except to say, "Good on ya for finishing a tune, DC!"

Zoetrope as inspiration: I can dig it. And what would be the opposite of "inspiration?" Might it be ... "expiration?"

Nobody Needs Love - Andrew Richardson & Dena Porras: Very nice bluesy pop tune, and very very nice to hear a female voice on HMHS. Well sung, and good arrangement, with some nice fat tone on the guitar. My favorite on this episode.

Pro song: Very much captured late '60s Motown/Soul vibe, in the arrangement and the vocal, especially the style on the vocal. I enjoyed the way the song built up in places. Although I wouldn't rush out to buy it, I thought it was very well done.

Songs for free: Much has been said already, but let me add that I have never heard of a musician, songwriter, actor, painter, etc., who made it to the big time without working his/her ass off, moving to where the action is, networking, making contacts, cultivating friendships, and exploiting every opportunity for self promotion. Yeah, the Beatles were an "overnight sensation," if, by overnight, you mean playing at waterfront dives in Hamburg for next to nothing for 12 hours at a time, playing anyplace and anytime, all the while being told by family and friends they couldn't make it.

People are inventing models for making it a wise and profitable decision to "give away" content; people from mid-list authors like Cory Doctorow to the "Biggies," Wall Street Journal. There is at least one book out now, "Free," (what else?) that talks about it.

If someone wants to "retreat" from this vast pool of talented people, I say, "Go ahead. You will not be missed."

Zoetrope's "Producer" idea: I agree with Tony, that most of the people on the HMHS forum probably aren't trying to get to the Pro level, but I like the idea and would be interested in the results. There are a couple of magazines (I can't think of which one right now, maybe "Singer/Songwriter?") that do something like this for serious people. Also, there's "Bash this recording" on the old interwebs, although that is likely not to be "Pro" criticism. http://forum.recordingreview.com/

Dave Chick's IHR synth segment: This was a great segment, for the curious. If you are a Sonar user there is a book, "Cakewalk Synthesizers: From Presets to Power User," by Simon Cann, which goes way in depth, starting from the very simple, like Dave C. did. I believe the same author has also written a more generic book with the same material, but I couldn't comment on whether or not is is worth the money. (remember to use the HMHS website link if you buy) All very hands on, and goes through all of the Cakewalk synths. It would really be nice if there was a book about keyboard playing for guitarists. I would definitely buy that one.

Red Uniform - John Meadows: Cute! Nice bit of surf/pop, interesting premise, and nicely executed. I liked it. Yes, our sympathies to the red shirted "Away Team" guy. Usually, if he gets to the 1st commercial, he's alright.

Once again, thanks to Tony and Dave and everyone in this forum and the other podcasts and the forums (or is it "fori?") that give us encouragement to keep writing. I appreciate it and look forward to every episode.
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by Polly » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:18 am

famouspatrick wrote: ... (or is it "fori?")

Good question famous one. ;) To conjugate the latin verb 'Forus' (To meet in a public place for open discussion);

Forus
Fori
Forum
Foramus
Foratis
Forant


Thus we see 'forum' to be the third person singular. 'He, she, or it meets in a public place for open discussion'.

Now here's a summer challenge - make a duller more pretentious (and linguistically dishonest) post than that one! 8)
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by Zoetrope » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:37 am

famouspatrick wrote:the forums (or is it "fori?")
I believe the plural of forum is "farts" ;)
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by criddlerus » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:25 pm

Thanks for all the comments everyone! It is very nice to read and get all that support.

New show coming soon!

Dave
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Re: HMHS 166 - The 50% off Zoetrope Love In (7/10/09)

Post by Gu Djin » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:55 am

Noisettes were uk TV. Jonathon Ross Show last night and their act is very much how they sound. Like revival 60's. Quite good.
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