HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by storpotaten » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:01 pm

Zoetrope wrote:
storpotaten wrote:In that case, I withdraw my previous statement
Too late. :twisted:
Oh, that's alright, I stand by my word. In fact, I mistyped; it was not the previous statement I withdrew, but my initial one. His song doesn't sound great as it should be remixed in stereo.

(N.B. I don't trust Tony's word for a second :evil: , but since Mr Eddy hasn't joined the discussion himself, we have nothing else...)
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by CharlieWardick » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:54 pm

Good show.

Line 6: sold my pods, plugs, guitars everything just over a year ago. I have nixed the 6.

VSTs and whanot in general: I record wet. I have gone through the phase where I record everything dry and re-amp it or vst it to death. It was a period where I completed absolutely nothing for a very long time. It was a most unproductive period. When I write something I have a good idea of how I want it to sound. So now I dial in accordingly and just roll with it and record. In the event I discover the tone sucked ass, then I'll dial up something new and record again. To me it about playing the instruments and making songs, not playing a track once and fiddling with dials and sliders for inifinity. Same deal with mixing the songs. I doubt I'm getting better at it, but I am spending far less time.

Guitars: Well you can't have too many. My wife even bought me shirt that says so. Just bought another myself week before last. I like old MIJ guitars, Tokai, Burny, Greco. I wanted to sell a few, wife says no. Go figure. Okay then I just buy more.

Room Treatment: None except pack it full of guitars, desks, speakers, printers, kitchen sink...... I direct record so I don't need room treatment. When I do vox which is rare I just set up mic wherever I feel like it and let it rip.
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by The Cracks » Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:57 pm

Bondi Beach - Andy Richards - Sweet song. I love that instrumentation. You added a little extra humph and it shows. Wonderful tone on vocals. Cool electric guitar during bridge. Wow, what a pretty end with all the strings and such. This is a great sounding recording.

That is the trick, Dave. :D

East coast of U. S. has great beaches. They do get rocky as you head further north (Cape Cod, etc.).

:oops: Thanks on the lyrics nod. Edge in my music! :D Man, oh man. Wow! I'm getting some press here. Thanks Dave. A video is up (see open forum). Two guys talked through my performance and the video camera picked it all up. They ruined an otherwise pretty good sounding audio. My new guitar crapped out on me unfortunately. Why I didn't change batteries I'll never know. :evil: The good news is that I kept playing through and didn't let it stop me. I got a good reception so I'm guessing the second mic picked the guitar up good enough. ABC News. We were lucky to have 50 people there at any one time. :D "Dragged away...we can only hope" - :D

I'd have to Google POD Farm before I joined this conversation.

Yes, I never mess with volume while recording. It's all in the mix. Good tips, Dave. I'll try them some time.

Home sound treatment. I really want to use it but I never do. When it comes time to record I am usually to excited and rushed. Long after the recording is done I think next time I'll use some kind of treatment.

Me too Dave (see above). Me too, Tony. I sing into a cinder block wall. :shock: Tony, that would be a cool experiment. Yes, the PS04. Can you still find your PS04? :D Dang, another good idea regarding the laundry things. We have one of those right in the back room. I turn off all water (dishwasher, etc.) when recording, as the water pipes are right over my head. When my wife is taking a shower, all recording comes to a stop.

Hell and Back - Bryan Eddy - Dang, another song with cool instrumentation. This does sound like Foreigner. I saw Foreigner when they opened for the Stones in Philly 1978. Good rocker. Nice use of the keys. Good one, dude.

Listening environment - 99.9% of the songs I listen to are here at home in front of the PC or at work in front of the PC. I think I most enjoy songs played in the car, but I rarely listen in the car anymore. The reason is that I only drive a few miles a week in my car (to and from train station ususally), and when we take long drives in my wife's car (the one with the great stereo), we usually are talking or she is sleeping and I don't want to disturb her. I used to blast the car radio when I was a younger man. That's why I have patience with the younger kids who play their music loud in cars (think throbbing bass). I remember the joy well.

I've got to admit, despite all of Tony's good advice on branching out and listening to new stuff, 99% of the music I listen to are Bob Dylan, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, and whoever else I'm interested in at the time. :oops: I must have played the live version of Bob Dylan's "Idiot Wind" a hundred times this year alone. What a song.

My reviews on this forum are to the point these days. I'm not going to nit pick any recording as the person obviously was ready to post it and that's good enough for me. Do I really care if the EQ is high enough? Hell, I wouldn't know it if it wasn't. And, if I did hear a problem, I couldn't tell the person how to fix it, unless the solution called for more reverb or maybe volume, fade at end, etc. Nothing too damaging. Once I got it down that it's all about the song, the recording battle was over. That's how I view other home recorders works too.

I completely missed the iTunes, downloading music train, as I've said before.

Youtube is the best music library for me. Maybe one day soon they will start selling downloads right from the Youtube videos. :idea:

Dave, this sounds just like a 70's punk garage band. I feel like it's a summer night and I'm walking up the driveway with a six pack of beer while you guys are playing in the garage with the door open.

I am liking my new guitar. I don't love it yet, especially after crapping out on me while I was on stage. But I played it tonight (with new batteries) until my fingers hurt. I haven't done that in a while.

I have my brother's hard case from the 70's. Some of the latches don't work. There are still some old picks inside.

Try the Strat in Open G. My cheap ones are great for that. (I don't have a Strat though. I think I have two Telecasters.)

I thought Wammy Bars came with all electric guitars. Neither of my electrics have one. I've got to say I was a bit disappointed. :evil:

Roker Beach - Dave Cooper and his mate Ralph - Yes, this does have that 60's Brit sound. Cool vocal hamony coming in through both headphones. Cool song. Nice whistle. Now that's a good strong Lennon whistle. This is a charming song. I like it a lot. Good one. I might fade that one out a bit slower though. (See, there is the extent of my nits these days.)

Good show.
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by The Cracks » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:02 pm

If anyone wants to see the video of my D.C. performance on Sunday, here is a link to Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cUn0q1FgSc

It's only portions of each song because the guys talking drowned much of the recording out. :evil:

It's funny, I always wanted to jump around like Mick Jagger but I have to admit I stand in one place much more like Bill Wyman. :shock:

I know the last song is sappy, but I'm pleased that I remembered all the words since I wrote it just the night before the show.
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My albums

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"No matter how hard I tried [no song] was ever perfect. There was always a pimple somewhere.” Burt Bacharach

"If you're enjoying it, why do something else?" Sir Paul McCartney

"The chords inspire the melody and the melody inspires the lyrics." Brian Wilson

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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by davecooper » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:37 am

Hi

Bondi Beach – Andy Richards

I really like the guitar sound you get on this song, or is it a keyboard?

Nice song well sung and produced. Also think the sound effects give the song an extra edge.

Hell and Back – Bryan Eddy

Interesting song – good backing sounds

Has a Peter Gabriel sound to me with other 80’s rock thrown in. Good song.


Thanks for playing Roker Beach – My mate Ralph hates this song by the way, don’t know why - everyone that has heard it thinks it’s good.

It’s actually not about his first time singing but his first carnal encounter.

Up here in the north east of England we have some of the best beaches in the UK.

If anyone has access to Rhapsody I have some songs on there if you fancy a listen.

Music is best enjoyed when you want to enjoy it - not as a chore.


I use a box room as a place to record – just a pop filter for the Behringer mike and do all electric guitars, bass and keyboards by direct inject through Pod 6 effects and basically record that way – sometimes it sounds really good and other, well I’ve had my fair share of disasters.
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by Joe Mac » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:08 am

Hi Guys,
Short of time but just wanted to do a quick post to say thanks for yet another great show.
Looking forward eagarly to the next one, reminds me of sitting in school wondering who'll be on the John Peel show (Tony & the other Brits will know what I mean)that night.

I know the shows about songs, but I like it when you also :D do stuff about recording and guitar techniques.It certainly helps me in the quest to capture the band in my head as best I can.
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by ornaith » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:36 am

I, too, enjoy the recording discussions as much as the songwriting ones; it's nice to have a variety of topics.
I live in New York, so space is at a premium: I record in a room that also does duty as my study, the guest room, my girlfriend's craft room, and room where things go that don't fit anywhere else in the apartment. So it wouldn't do to put acoustic foam or anything all over the place. I haven't found it a problem though. Guitars, bass, drum machine go through my little mixer and acoustic guitar, mandolin, and vocals I like to drown in reverb anyway (too much My Bloody Valentine in my youth!) so the room sounds are fine. I just have a home-made pop filter (wire hanger and a pair of tights); I set up the mic stand , plug in, and go.
Finally-- Fruit chews? Oh yes. Can you still get them? I remember when they were 1p, back in the day...
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by ornaith » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:52 pm

Fruit chews? No, they weren't called that. Fruit salad, wasn't it?
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by detuned » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:59 pm

Another great show guys!

My thoughts on room treatment. "Trying to mix music without room treatment is like trying to feel boobs through a ski jacket!"

The best gear you can afford to buy will not improve your recording as much as basic room treatment.

You don't have to spend a lot of money to improve the sound of your recording space. A couple of bats of 3"X24"X48" mineral wool in cloth covered frames placed in the corners, behind, beside and above the mix position can make a huge difference. Basically you place an acoustic absorber at the points where sound will reflect back to you. So you would also place some panels on the wall opposite your speakers. Thicker panels placed across the corners of the room will absorb some of the lower frequency energy. There are a few good books available that can help you with the building and placement of acoustic panels.

Some links to build your own panels -
http://www.joshuapenrose.com/DIYAcousticPanels.html
http://afarawayland.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... rigid.html
http://www.realtraps.com/

I used the IK Multimedia ARC system to graphically show me how terrible my rectangular basement room studio sounded. After applying room treatment the ARC showed me the improvements made. There is now very little correction required from the ARC system to give me a flat frequency response.

Now my mixes transfer better to other systems and there are fewer surprises.
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by Zoetrope » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:31 am

detuned wrote:"Trying to mix music without room treatment is like trying to feel boobs through a ski jacket!"
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by Grandma Melonhead » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:37 am

I rehearsed once in an anechoic (?) room. A room with no reflections and man was it disconcerting. If you turned away from someone you were talking to, they couldnt hear you any longer. I'm not sure what these rooms are used for, but they're terrible for rehearsing or recording a band.

You know in the old days before recording became such a science, live rooms were sought out for their specific sounds. Rooms were features -- something you'd hear like an instrument or performer. And everything was recorded at once so all the sounds were mixing in the reverb of the room. Listen to some old Who or Rolling Stones to hear what I'm talking about. Of course that doesnt mean that your basement isnt going to sound like crap, it probably will. Also the live room approach is particuarly suited to recording live -- that is without overdubs.

I record in my office I had built in the back yard. I guess its pretty bad for recording. Wooden floor and ceiling. 2 to 1 proportion. lots of glass. I quite like the sound I can get for electric guitar out of it by putting mics in a few places but for voice and mixing, no. Sometimes I hang a blanket behind me but very rarely. I should experiment more cause I often find even fairly sparse arrangements of mine difficult to mix. Too muddy.

------

Hey, is anyone recording drums in their homestudios? I always assumed that that was a lost cause but maybe it isnt. I prefer drums to sound natural and real anyway. Trashy even.
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by criddlerus » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:46 pm

I have recorded plenty of drums. I find the most important thing is actually the drummer. A really good drummer will sound fantastic if he is playing in an elevator shaft or a room full of pillows. I recorded some stuff with me playing drums and then I had my friend Craig (who is amazing.. ex military drummer... knows his drum roll and stick control after years of drills) come over and play and the set just jumps out of the speakers.

It is all about mic placement of course. I just use 4 mics: kick, snare and two overheads. Just keep moving them around until you get a good sound. Often I put the kick mic back about a yard from the drums to pick up overall sound.

Recording drums can be painful and is definitely an art. I recorded my jazz band live and it came out just magical in my basement.

Dave
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by lucas » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:56 pm

songs:
__________
Bondi Beach - Andy Richards
very mellow

Hell and Back - Bryan Eddy
gabriel meets foreigner?
dunno, sometimes it makes me think of 'eye of the tiger'
not in a bad way though. ;)

Roker Beach - Dave Cooper and his mate Ralph
kind of a 60's retro retro tune.
small faces?
definitely a kind 60's Mod Scene sound.

comments:
___________
Do you think sounds treatments are necessary at home and what do you use.

YES!
Wankel Rotary engines!
kidding aside, awhile back I was looking at getting a portable vocal booth.
http://www.dawbox.com/DAWBOOTH.htm
these are pretty cool.

There's a thread from Matbio (or Automata) that has some cheap sound treatment tips.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10795
I believe Omega posted a tip about using PVC pipe and connectors to create a portable frame for sound blankets.
easy to set up and break down.
$100-$150 for all the materials though...

POD Farm:
Is that latest one from Spinal Tap?

Using the volume knob in your guitar sounds:
Simple tips are the best!

How listening environment effects your appreciation of music
mood and space are always import influences.

XTC song:
it's a mugs game

Dave's new guitar:
always a good time, isn't it?

ahh.. sorry if my 'contour' question ruined the G&L for you. :(

Note: Telecasters came before Stratocasters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Fender
The Strat was designed to be an upscale guitar with more versatility and better features than the Tele.
'upscale' is also known as 'more expensive'

good show!
Last edited by lucas on Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by RobertLeeHall » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:04 pm

Hi Tony and Dave,

Just a quick note to say I am still out here and listening. I enjoyed the show very much. All of the tunes were pretty cool. I will have to get back later for a detailed break down of the songs.

Robert Lee Hall
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by Chris C » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:27 pm

Good show, like usual.

Albums you no longer listen to - I went through a big Yes phase when I was in my teens. My friends were listening to 90125, that 80s sort of comeback thing - I went back and got into the older Steve Howe/Rick Wakeman stuff. Played it a lot.

So today, "Starship Trooper" comes on my Pandora station. Haven't heard it in years - don't have the album anymore. For the first few minutes (long song) I was digging it, but eventually ended up skipping it. Maybe my attention span is getting short...wait, what was I saying?

Along those same lines, how many of your favorite bands today were also favorites 10 years ago? There's only a handful for me.


anyway, enjoyed the show


Chris
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by Dave King » Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:39 pm

Just thought I'd chime in on the acoustic treatment subject. Does it make a difference? Yes, it certainly does. I have my "studio" set up in a spare bedroom. I got to a place where I was pretty much satisfied with my equipment but still on a never-ending quest to improve things if possible. I wound up building 2' x 4' panels following the plans in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyYUpkpL0gw

I made 6 panels that are 2" thick for general absorption and 3 panels that are 4" thick to be used as bass traps. They are hung strategically on the walls all around my "studio" space.

I have an identically sized room opposite from my "studio" and after installing the panels, the difference in acoustics between the two rooms is VERY obvious. The sound in the "studio" is nice and flat with little reverberation. I did a spectrum analysis test at the mixing position after installing the panels and got very good results: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?&m=14 ... um&mpage=2

So, yes if you're so inclined, I would definitely recommend room treatment.
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Re: HMHS 172 - Use The Volume Knob (09/04/2009

Post by chckn8r » Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:19 pm

Tony - question for you...

Were you asking:

1. Does room treatment matter? (i.e. is it necessary - essentially what you had at the top of the thread)

or

2. Does it make any difference?

I'd hazard to guess that pretty well everyone here is in agreement that the answer to question #2 is a Yes.

The answer to question #1 is a bit tougher to objectively answer. My answer is yes, but it's qualified with caveats of what musician/engineer/songwriter hopes to achieve with his or her work.

For the professional, I think it's in his or her best interest to have the best sounding room that gives him/her the result that sounds best to his or her ears - both for recording and for mixing/mastering/whatever.

For the non-professional ... I guess that all depends what his or her objectives are. Does the guy who just loves to play and record himself as an occasional hobby need to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars to calm that standing wave in the spare bedroom? Well, no - if he's having fun making music and likes what he hears, then that's not really necessary.

For all the folks in between - I'd propose that the individual's necessity for room treatment is directly corelated to his or her desire to sound more "polished". The more experience you get, the more discerning your ears get, the more detailed your tracks and mixes get, the more exposure you're looking to generate ... the more towards "professional" you want to push yourself, I'd think that good room treatment would climb on the "it matters" scale.

enough rambling...

Looking forward to the next show guys!

Cheers, D
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