HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Check out the Home Made Hit Show with Tony and Dave at http://homemadehitshow.com
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HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by tonyoci » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:03 pm

www.homemadehitshow.com

Yes folks, you can now call Dave and Tony (for free from the US) from the link at www.homemadehitshow.com or by calling (408) 782 4021.

This weeks long show features

* Voicemails
* Using collaboration to finish of songs
* Listening on different setups, watch out on reviews, consider listening environment
* The Zoom R16 (check it out in the forums)

This week we have been listening to

* Owl City
* Grizzly Bear
* Daniel Johnston

Watch them on our youtube playlist http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 28C4AC3D89

You can also find the Avett Bros, I and Love and You on that playlist, our pro song this week.

And of course the all important songs

* Bryan Eddy - A Tree Falls In The Forest

* Dwight Engen - Terrible Secret

* Brian Plamondon - This is Love
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by Tracey Leu » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:19 pm

For some weeks now, I have tried to access The HMHS but have had no luck!
I normally leave quietly...but today I have decided to let you know it's bloody annoying!!! :(
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by Zoetrope » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:58 pm

* Bryan Eddy - A Tree Falls In The Forest
Nice clear professional sounding mix. I like the vocal. Kind of Peter Gabriel sounding. Good job on this.

*More reverb (and delay) on vocals
Yes, yes, yes.

* Dwight Engen - Terrible Secret
Nice rocker, love the chorusy guitar.

* The Zoom R16 (check it out in the forums)
viewforum.php?f=17
Much discussion of the R16 on the forum. And yes, this would be perfect for a band.

*Unidentified pro song.
Good tune. I like the simple arrangement. Definitely the solid vocal pushes this into the pro pile.

* Brian Plamondon - This is Love
Wow, another great sounding song. I love the progression at "It's been said a million times". Really cool sounding.

Great show, and great to have the Crid-meister back in the saddle.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by Zoetrope » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:08 pm

Whoa, just watched the Daniel Johnston song (in the YouTube videos) with the Once couple (Swell Season) and the kids singing backup. Amazingly wonderfully great. And yeah, The Devil and Daniel Johnston is a great flick.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by criddlerus » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:57 pm

Zoetrope wrote:* The Zoom R16 (check it out in the forums)
viewforum.php?f=17
Much discussion of the R16 on the forum. And yes, this would be perfect for a band.
I was just asked to record someone singing a song his great grandfather wrote in 1840! This guy is a retired choir director and is really excited about the recording. He wants guitar, violin and two vocals. I think I am going to buy this R16 to take to his house for the recording! I saw one being sold as a demo for $50 off. Whaddaya think?
Zoetrope wrote:Great show, and great to have the Crid-meister back in the saddle.
It was very nice to be back. Thanks!
Zoetrope wrote:Whoa, just watched the Daniel Johnston song (in the YouTube videos) with the Once couple (Swell Season) and the kids singing backup. Amazingly wonderfully great. And yeah, The Devil and Daniel Johnston is a great flick.
Yes, I loved that. You really should check out his new album. Crazy :nuts: and wondeful :bliss:
http://www.lala.com/#artist/Daniel_Johnston


* Bryan Eddy - A Tree Falls In The Forest
- Great production and very pro sounding. Loved the vocals and overall sound.


* Dwight Engen - Terrible Secret
- Very rockin' tune. Great guitar tone!

* Brian Plamondon - This is Love
- Loved the acoustic instruments and the mix was just right! Bravo.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by tonyoci » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:13 pm

Tracey Leu wrote:For some weeks now, I have tried to access The HMHS but have had no luck!
I normally leave quietly...but today I have decided to let you know it's bloody annoying!!! :(
Do you have any more useful info ? iTunes, website, etc. etc.

Thanks.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by Tracey Leu » Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:17 am

tonyoci wrote:
Do you have any more useful info ? iTunes, website, etc. etc.

Thanks.
Yes, I have I-Tunes...can I access it through that?

:D
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by Zoetrope » Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:10 am

I just go to the HMHS homepage, right click the link to the show, and download it. Works every time. No need for Itunes.
criddlerus wrote: I think I am going to buy this R16 to take to his house for the recording! I saw one being sold as a demo for $50 off. Whaddaya think?
I would read some of the detailed reviews in the forum first. Some people love it, some hate it, and I think the difference is in what they intended to use it for. Too bad ZOOM HASN'T SENT ME ONE TO REVIEW (hint hint hint) or I'd have more concrete advice for you.
You really should check out his new album. Crazy :nuts: and wondeful :bliss:
http://www.lala.com/#artist/Daniel_Johnston
Giving it a lala listen right now. Thanks for the tip.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by criddlerus » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:30 pm

Tracey Leu wrote:Yes, I have I-Tunes...can I access it through that?

:D
Yes. Go to the iTunes Store and search the Podcasts for Home Made Hit Show. Then click Subscribe and it should show up in the Podcast section of your iTunes.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by tonyoci » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:03 pm

iTunes is great because it auto downloads every week :)

Z-dog, Criddle neglects to mention that he already, impulsively, ordered an R16.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by Zoetrope » Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:09 pm

I kinda figured. Based on the rapid purchase of guitars, Crid seems to have an itchy trigger finger.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by storpotaten » Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:54 am

Bryan Eddy - A Tree Falls In The Forest: Really nice and talented (good singing!) and it would have been great... in stereo... Sorry, I just don't understand why anyone puts so much work into a song and then delivers a mono mix. Maybe it's just me.

Mixing and mastering: Mixing at low volume - I heard this also on the November issue of EM Podcast where some pro mixer said he does this.

Interesting to hear Tony's mastering-a-CD trick, I've always wondered how to do that. Stupid question: If I don't use any mastering effect, my mix will clip all the time (because there is no limiter active). What's the way to handle this? Pull all levels down until it doesn't clip? Or use a limiter in the master channel, but no other effects?

Bad guitar playing: Maybe Tony and I can start a Bad Guitar Playing (Virtual) Band. My performance, considering my 15 years of practice, is also embarrassing.

Dwight Engen - Terrible Secret: Great to hear that dengen is still active, and as rockin' as ever. Always have been impressed with his tracks and the pro sound he gets out of the MRS-8. ("Jerry" is a favourite of mine.)

Zoom RS16: Dave, it would be irresponsible of you not to get an RS16. Don't hesitate another minute, do it now.

Avett Bros, I and Love and You: A very good song, and the category - country or not or something else - is actually not important for a song like this. Clever build-up as well.

This week we have been listening to... Thanks for this. You have made me listen Death Cab, and I've been trying to catch up with other bands as well. Feels good to start discovering more recent music again and I will check these ones on Spotify.

Brian Plamondon - This is Love: Excellent stuff, pro sound. Your interest in "textures" can be heard and really pays off well (I like that kind of production.)

About Tracey's download problems - I often get very, very slow download from the web site, it may take 45 minutes to download the mp3. Most other sites have very fast downloads. Just saying, it could be an ISP-to-Tony connection issue from some places here in Europe.

Tony, I didn't say it last week, but I also found your segment about your "Bad World" production very interesting.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by tonyoci » Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:31 am

People tell me the segment is interesting but never "why" so I can repeat the magic :)

Regarding the mixing Albert, your comment makes me wonder. I absolutely 100% NEVER have a non mastered mix that clips. I was under the impression that a mix should be well below clipping and then the limiter is used to raise the volume. By having a mix that clips you are causing your limiter to squash the sound instead of enhancing it.

Now as a self taught amateur I could have that completely wrong but it works for me :)
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by The Cracks » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:14 pm

Just gave "Bad World" another listen. Great song. A true rocker.

Bryan Eddy - A Tree Falls In The Forest - Absolutely lovely guitar sound. Great overall production. This is really a nice tune.

I've often thought having a real studio as a practice space would be cool. It's funny, I can sing before relatively large crowds (for me at least) without a problem. But put someone in the house with me while I record, I clam up. :?

Voice Mail sounds good but if we all started phoning in our reviews of the show, you'd have no posts here. :shock:

You could have contests where the first message with the right answer, etc., etc,.

More good mixing tips, Dave.

You put fingerprints, I usually put a big smudge mark. :?

Wav. I think wav sounds much better. Compare the sound of a song on Bandcamp vs Soundclick. I think Bandcamp sounds much better.

I don't save unmastered.

If I were patient enough, I'd mix and then walk away from a song for a few days then listen again. I never do that though.

I was just telling TT2 and V on the open forum that my collab days are pretty much finished.
The pressure is just too great when someone else is counting on my work for their song. I just don't have it in me anymore. Now, I don't mind others adding to my songs, as it puts no pressure on me and their work generally improves the song.

Well, the screen keeps moving as I type again. This happens on all the PC's I use (work, home). I think it's a IE8 issue. I hate IE8.

Okay, I'm going to type the rest of my review on the PC and come back and post it here. This is anonying as Hell. :evil:


Okay, I'm back:

No, Tony, Glen is wrong. You play the guitar very well. I think you have one of the most distinct sounds around these parts.



I am a bad guitar player, if you really need an good example of one.



Again, Tony, if you can't play at an open Mic, it's what Dave just said. You do more one note riffs than actually strumming. So that would be the reason, if what you say is true at all, which I have to doubt. If I can play open mics, anyone can.



Dwight Engen - Terrible Secret - Great atmosphere created on this one. I love those deep guitars. Very cool song. Love those guitars.



R16 - For my live recording purposes, I'll stick with the PS04 until either it dies or I do.



I like Atl Country. I don't like the Pop-Country on Country Music TV. They are certainly talented (Keith Urban can play the guitar as good as any rocker), but the songs are just so...so...predictable?



Is Owl City the Atl Country group? I love this song. See, main stream country artists usually would never go out on a limb for a song like this. I personally think this song is absolutely beautiful.



The Avett Bros? Never heard of them. That's one great song.



I'll look these vids up. I'll check out the vid on HMHS too.



I think I've actually seen that movie on Daniel Johnston. I'll have to check out my Netflix history. Okay, as Dave talks more, I don't think I've seen the movie. But I will.



Brian Plamondon - This is Love - Nice easy listening. This does have a healthy dose of country. Nice melodies and great lyrics. Good song.



Good show, chaps.
Last edited by The Cracks on Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by storpotaten » Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:43 pm

tonyoci wrote:People tell me the segment is interesting but never "why" so I can repeat the magic :)
If that is directed at me, then my answer is: 80% of what you do with the mix, I would have done it too (or at least considered doing it), like the layered drum loops. This is already interesting, that we share a lot of the methodology. The remaining 20%, like that U2 guitar thing, makes me go aha!
tonyoci wrote: Regarding the mixing Albert, your comment makes me wonder. I absolutely 100% NEVER have a non mastered mix that clips. I was under the impression that a mix should be well below clipping and then the limiter is used to raise the volume. By having a mix that clips you are causing your limiter to squash the sound instead of enhancing it.
I'm clueless. What I do is this:
1. Record a track in Reaper, e.g. with the H4n as a USB audio interface. Or, I import a WAV from somewhere else.
2. Normalise that track. You could skip this (keeping a lower volume), but then adding any type of compression or other effects will be difficult or at least not as effective.
3. Repeat step 1 and 2 for more tracks.
4. Keeping the levels at 0db for recorded tracks and the master channel, it is going to clip. Lowering the levels on the tracks will clip most of the time anyway.
What part do you do differently?
The Cracks wrote:It's funny, I can sing before relatively large crowds (for me at least) without a problem. But put someone in the house with me while I record, I clam up. :?
Ditto.
The Cracks wrote:Well, the screen keeps moving as I type again. This happens on all the PC's I use (work, home). I think it's a IE8 issue. I hate IE8.
I stopped using IE when IE7 came. It was just so much worse than Firefox. I now switch between Firefox and Google Chrome. Both are lightyears better than IE. I strongly recommend a change of browser software (at least on your home PC, if you can't choose for your work PC).
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by tonyoci » Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:04 pm

Albert, not saying what is right or wrong but the differences are

1) I never normalize
2) I never have any track at 0db, I think Reaper defaults them to -6 or something then I'll lower them as necessary. Obviously the more instruments that are playing the less volume each one can have but since they are often recorded at different levels etc. it's more of an art than a science.

I have no idea if the end result is much different. Usually the loudest point of my mix, pre master, is around -6db, then the master tool can add it's EQ and whatever else to get it up to 0db. IT feels to me like having it clipping prior to mastering doesn't allow any room. Kind of the same way they say to record around -12db to leave "room" for effects etc.
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Re: HMHS 180 - Voicemail (11/6/09)

Post by criddlerus » Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:05 pm

tonyoci wrote:I have no idea if the end result is much different. Usually the loudest point of my mix, pre master, is around -6db, then the master tool can add it's EQ and whatever else to get it up to 0db. IT feels to me like having it clipping prior to mastering doesn't allow any room. Kind of the same way they say to record around -12db to leave "room" for effects etc.
- I think normalizing is just fine. It maximizes the volume of your track without altering it (though some might dispute that) It is best to get a track as hot as possible before turning to compression and normalizing can help. It is also a good idea to record relatively hot.

- It is a great idea to mix without hitting 0db on the master fader. Get the mix to sound great WITHOUT a master limiter and try to get the peaks to hit around 0db. You can usually make a mix sound good while slamming into a limiter, but I think it is best to get the mix sounding great without the limiter/mastering software and then throw that on at the very end as Tony does. Yes, your mix will be quieter, but see how hot and full you can get it while peaking at or below 0. Then you have nowhere to go but up in the mastering phase. A lot of people get too reliant on the limiter/mastering software to fix their mixes or mix with them on.

- Save those un-mastered/limited mixes as we said so you can re-master them later for an album project.

- Sonically, I don't think Tony's method of mixing below 0 and then applying mastering/limiting plugins to bring it up or mixing above 0 and tamping things down with mastering/limiting plugins makes any difference. I think it is 6 of one and half dozen of another. Tony's method is better though, because if you DON'T have the limiter on, then you might get some distortion if you mix about 0.
The Cracks wrote:It's funny, I can sing before relatively large crowds (for me at least) without a problem. But put someone in the house with me while I record, I clam up. :?
Yup. Recording is like singing into a microscope. Everything is magnified and scrutinized. I am appalled when I hear live recordings from shows sometimes, but I know we sounded great "in the moment".
The Cracks wrote:You put fingerprints, I usually put a big smudge mark. :?
LOL!!
tonyoci wrote:People tell me the segment is interesting but never "why" so I can repeat the magic :)
I think it was enlightening just for you to walk through the steps. Hearing your vocal sound solo opened my eyes and also your combining of drum loops. Every time you go through a song step by step, something interesting is revealed.
Zoetrope wrote:I kinda figured. Based on the rapid purchase of guitars, Crid seems to have an itchy trigger finger.
LOL. I have had one lately. Yes, I bought the R16. I have been waiting for a product like that for a while. I bought a Fostex digital 8 track a while back, but it only records 2 tracks at once. VERY annoying for my purposes. (anyone want it for cheap?) What I want to do is have something I can take to a show or someone's house and capture the drums, bass, guitar, vocals, etc on separate tracks then dump them into Reaper for mixing/overdubs. That sounds like exactly what this thing was designed for! I have been waiting for something cheap and small that does this for years. This thing has USB on it so you can dump the tracks directly to a thumb drive. I was salivating as I read the review of it.

What pushed me over the edge is that this soon to be client offered me $200 to record his folk song, so I already have it half paid for. Then Sweetwater had a demo model for $50 off. SOLD! I will also use it to record a CD of my jazz band. I could make excellent recordings of practices with this thing. I will still use my H4 for quick and dirty recordings of practices, but this thing will be handy for when I want to step it up a bit.

Also, I recorded some vocals for Rainy while standing up, got the lyrics memorized, and moved around while I sang. Wow! That made a huge difference. Now to mix it. Can't get a good vocal reverb.

I love this forum!

Dave
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