Zoom Gear & Home Recording Forum

see www.homemadehitshow.com for the show files and videos etc.

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Here we go again with the home recording and songwriting wonder from the experienced professional musician Tony Butterworth and the rank amateur Dave Criddle.

This weeks discussions

* More on "modern" lyrics
* Stevie Z reminds us that songs are a chance to say something
* Travis Brown wants a review (or does he)
* Tony liked a Justin Bieber song
* Tony has continued to listen to Jonsi and The Holloways
* Dave has been listening to Jonsi and "Sea and Cake"
* Dave talks about his latency research
* Dave talks about Buddy Holly's Midnight Shift
* Tony says "Lyrics don't matter unless they aren't there or you can't understand them"
* Dave's songs sound great when performed by his band

This weeks tunes

* Spotlights - Travis Brown
* Straight Up Shot - Famous Patrick Bonier
* Let the Sunshine In - Guys From South

VIDEOS
Justin Bieber - Girl
The Holloways - Jukebox Sunshine
Sea and Cake - Weekend

Hey, I thought "Spotlights" was real pro-sounding (made me thing of Crash Test Dummies and Erasure a little bit).

"Straight Up Shot" - there was some clever word-play and references in there...the effort with the shot glass was worth it, the shot glass hits really stood out for me in a positive way.

"Let The Sunshine In" pro-sounding, nice to here the female voice on the HMHS.

I'll make some observations that are (probably) obvious about songwriting/lyrics.
If you got a catchy hook/chorus line you can get away with a lot of mediocrity in the verses. The Journey song "Don't Stop Believing" comes to mind. It is no accident that many, many song titles contain part of the chorus words and contributes to the song sticking in peoples heads ("I'm On Fire" by Bruce Springsteen just came to mind). My favorite song of Tony's is "Here Comes Conrad" and when I think of the title I also "sing" it in my head. My view: as long as the words don't sound stupid or stick out like a sore thumb, and contain that "hook" line that pulls people in then they will hold up as lyrics (of course usually the verses will have some connection in meaning to the chorus/hook, and will have some structure/consistancy in number of syllables per line etc., although it is interesting to hear singers stretch and add syllables to make things work).

Another thought, I'm a bit dissapointed when I'm listening to a new song and can guess how the next line will end (for example the first line ends with the work "key" and half-way through the second line I'm guessing correctly that the last word of the secong line will be "free")...I think I especially hold this against a song I'm not liking overall anyway, and I would be more forgiving of this if I liked other aspects of the song. We should not be too demanding of songwriters to have every line of every song say something in a brand new way, after a while every understandable line will be "used up" and we be trying to deciper code as the songwriters try to be more and more clever. Its also interesting that there are new songs that unashamedly recycle the exact words for their hook/tiltes from older songs (like the modern Fergie song "Big Girls Don't Cry" has the same lyric hook as the 60's band the Four Seasons "Big Girls Dont't Cry").

Thanks K.

On the Rock and Roll Geek Podcast they frequently play "guess the rhyme" where they pause the music and ask the listener to guess what comes next. The host and myself are frequently right of course

I think I agree that a generally memorable chorus can be supported by weak or meaningless verses. Sometimes I hate to waste a great line in a verse

* Spotlights - Travis Brown* More on "modern" lyrics
Reminds me of Rush. Very cool song, creative and sounds great.

* Stevie Z reminds us that songs are a chance to say something
Yup

* Straight Up Shot - Famous Patrick Bonier
HeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaw!

* Dave has been listening to Jonsi and "Sea and Cake"
Gotta love Sea and Cake. Go Chicago!

* Let the Sunshine In - Guys From South
Very pro sound, kinda Black Eyed Peas-y. Nice job. Great vocal.

Another great show. Keep em comin'!

During the intro, I always think it's going to be a film show. There's the sound of a projector running in the background. Or is that just an added effect?

Spotlights - Travis Brown: Me like a lot. Good inspiration for someone who has recently invested in a synth. Great singing, good mix.

Dave's band practice recordings - I'd love to hear an example. I remember Stealy Dan talking about the record of Aja (it's in a good documentary) that they rehearsed the songs to perfection and then some, so that the recording would get the relaxed feel of habit.

Straight Up Shot - Famous Patrick Bonier: Sounds fantastic! Who is this guy?

Dave means ASIO4ALL rather than 4FREE... right? Latency on 1ms? Wow, can't get my H4n below 5ms. The conclusion has to be, I need to buy a real audio interface. Or why not an R16? Got to make a list...

Independence Free is very good but hard to install and a confusing GUI. It has good drums, pianos, organs, etc. Feel free to ask me.

Let the Sunshine In - Guys From South: Unusual sound for this show (which is good). I like it, but at the same time there are a couple too many ideas in there for a simple mind like mine. Would have preferred a more focused pop song. But that's me.

I'm still confused about the intro. Who is that talented guy that was supposed to be on this show?

Maybe we will play it on the next show....



Is the R16 a good audio interface? I haven't really used it for that yet. I still think you might want to get a true dedicated audio interface like a Toneport or a Presonus Firebox or something eventually. They seem to just work better than these multi use devices like the Zoom H4. The Toneport is a really nice device, I have to admit. If it is good enough for Todd Rundgren...



I did finally get it to install at home. Yes, it sounds pretty good on Drums. I want to try a comparison between it and Native Instruments Battery and see how it compares. Independence Free is great for free but is pretty stripped down, unless I am missing something. It has drums, basses, electric piano, a church organ, a bunch of synth sounds but it has no regular grand piano, no strings, no horns. I am not going to complain for free, but I would want Piano and Strings the most. I guess that is how they get you to buy their next levels up.

I still feel my investment the the Native Instruments Komplete was worth it. I see that Komplete 6 is out now for $499. To me, it is a pretty good investment really if anyone is thinking about it. You get a ton for the money. Battery drums, Kontakt sampler, Guitar Rig, Absynth, Vintage Keys and a ton of other synth thingys. Native Instruments has a really solid line of synths and they are really high quality. Now I just need to use them to make somehthing. Actually, I have been using Battery lately. I plan to use it more.

Dave

For strings, have you tried the East West free package? http://www.soundsonline.com/free-orchestra The strings sound good to me.

For piano, if you really want good quality, there is probably no cheap solution. The piano in the microKorg XL sounds pretty crap and that certainly wasn't for free.

The only reason I would buy Independent is to use other sample libraries or create my own. However awkward to use, it does seem to have the features you would want from a sampler. But I haven't evaluated any other products so maybe there are other better-value-for-money options.

Type in Yahoo! email, thus no icons, etc.

Gave a listen to "Singer/Songwriter" again. Great melody on that one. Piano riff is outstanding. Gave yet another listen to "Meet..." and that one still remains one of the best. Your well placed guitar licks are so appealing to me. Not too much, yet just enough to add real depth to the songs.

Spotlights - Travis Brown - Reminds me of Rush. Great lyrics. Good one. Really good recording too. It's wild what people are doing in home studios.

If you want reviews, Travis, post it on the new song forum.

Just turned on the old PS04 to make sure it is working. Yea, all lights are on.

I focus on songs mostly and the fact is that if it is original than I usually will give the thumb's up. I am not a techy person. If I can get the stuff recorded, that's a victory for me.

Lyrics are what they are. I personally think the Stones "Rough Justice" is a great rocker, yet if you read the lyrics, they are mostly nonsense trying to sound like they mean something. It all depends.

I just read where Jakob Dylan said he views writing lyrics like writing little plays. Not sure. That's what he says.

I was just saying to someone the other day that if people just don't have any spare time anymore than why are we all tweeting and Facebooking and forum posting? I say we still have plenty of time but we're just either wasting it or not recognizing that we have plenty of time for our interests. I say the latter.

For me it is very hard to write lyrics (words only), without the music. If you put any of my lyrics written to music up against lyrics without music, you'd see the former lines are shorter and the latter lines longer with more unnecessary detail.

Actually it was called "Don't Cry, Jane," and you did a rip-roaring version. My mother's name is Jane. I'm sure if I analyzed the song I could point out meaning, but when I wrote it, I just wrote words that hopefully flowed with the music.

My biggest problem is breaking out of my usual song subjects. I would love to write a song like the aforementioned "Rough Justice". Pure rocker with little or no meaning. I tried that on my last several times. I'm not sure I've succeeded or not.

Straight Up Shot - Famous Patrick Bonier - Yea, this is a catchy song. I could see this one getting picked up by a signed artist. I'd shop this one around if you can. Good recording. Good background vox, Dave. Band in the Box worked well here. Nice.

Buddy Holly compilation LP. That's cool. That's more money for Paul McCartney. He owns the rights to Buddy Holly's songs. He doesn't own the rights to his Beatles songs, but Buddy Holly's library probably isn't too bad.

The only thing I know about Justin is that he has that comb over style hair. I've never heard one song by him, so no comments.

So he's a white Michael Jackson? That would be Donny Osmond, wouldn't it?

Believe it or not, I am just discovering Oasis. I am finding their catalog is a bit thin once you get past the hits, but I appreciate that they appreciate those rockers (especially the British rockers) that came before them. I watched their tour rockumentary last night. It's called "Lord, Don't Slow Me Down," I believe. The band is rather boring on tour, which I respect. They don't seem to have fallen into the "I'm a rocker so I have to die young" bunk. The thing about Oasis is, as far as I can tell, they are legends in their own minds. They are good, but I don't think they are "brilliant" as they themselves describe themselves. Heck, I don't even think they are a unit any longer. Apparently the brothers don't get a long so well.

I love Latin music and I don't understand a word they are saying. They play it a lot in a restaurant that I go to in Union Station, Washington. Great music.

I'm not big on instrumentals either. I don't doubt the talent involved in them. They just bore me. Same thing with the extended jam in some songs. I'm a three-minute pop song fan, I suppose.

Let the Sunshine In - Guys From South - Wow. This does sound like a pro recording. The singer as some real American R&B soul to her vocal presentation. Really great song and great recording. I'd shop this one around too. This could be an urban hit in the U. S. Next stop, Soul Train. Yea! I like it.

P.s. The Rolling Stones actually have a new song out. Really it's an old one (from Exile on Main Street era), but with new Jagger vocals and Richards guitar over dubs. Lisa Fisher is on background vocals. It's not too bad. It's called "Plundered My Soul":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB5i38QzFIw

Spotlights - Travis Brown. I appreciate dave's comments, it's hard to critique this as I too am really pulled in by the quality of production and instrumentation. It's an excellent piece of work all round though. I gave it four listens in all. You've really nailed an 80s electronica sound.

So. Song writing critique. It kinda comes with genre, the sombre mood makes it difficult to get a catchy hook on the chorus if it's going to maintain that electronica feel. You can lift this style by upping the pace of the song and moving more towards a dancy feel - think Human League 'Don't You want Me Baby' - which occurs to me here.

The hook can come from a feeling of grandeur in the chorus. The chorus and verse were quite similar so it was about adding something in the chorus (or subtracting from the verse to make it sparser). A harmony in the chorus above the vocal melody would 'take it up there'. Do you have a female vocalist who could add that? that would add some sugar.

I can give this advice, I wish I could apply to my own stuff better!

Lyrics. Well I really cannot write without having something in there. The point can be trivial/minor, that doesn'r matter. I think there's a lot of agreement here really. None of us would just write rhyming garbage like Marc Bolan usually did.

The advice to avoid cliche is sound. It's annoying how many successful modern writers simply list rhyming cliches. Oasis and Robbie Williams are notorious for this and it's partly why i think so much of their output is so appalling.

I agree with Tony here, too many wannabe lyrcists are just bad poets. A lyric is not a poem because with a lyric the music carries its own emotional message. The two have to work together. I just covered a song recently, it was written by some friends of mine and I've always liked it. It's up on the new songs forum.

Dave's songs sound great when performed by his band. Lucky man. I did have my last band do one of my songs and it was great fun. I never recorded it though. Wish I had.

Straight Up Shot - Famous Patrick Bonier. I loved the phoned in correction. I thoroughly entertaining song. never be ashamed of these little vignettes (great word!). The most popular song I've done locally is about a a fish and chip shop closing down. And I love shot sound fx! The tale of FP running round the house trying to get the perfect smack was just hilarious. Not had slammers for years.

Let the Sunshine In - Guys From South. Yeah, the quality levels are astonishing on this one. The guys have raised the bar so high it's gonna be so easy for the rest of to stroll in right underneath it. I won't even have to duck. It's so good on so many levels. A really smooth mix, atmospheric but punchy in the right bits. I felt it could have had a bit more swing somehow, been a bit more dancey. LOVE the brass, soulful.

Another good show chaps. pip pip.

I'm going to do the "review" thing backwards ... just to be different.

Let the Sunshine In - Guys From South. Very cool and funky R&B sound without the scatter-vocals you hear in modern R&B - very nice and refreshing. I like it!

Straight Up Shot - Famous Patrick Bonier Patrick's tunes are always very cool to listen to - honest and fresh. Like Tony, I don't usually listen to lyrics, but I do find that I listen to your Patrick. Love the shotglass effect you recorded. Sounded great! "when I'm the hockey stick and you're the puck"... if I'd have been playing guess the rhyme, I wouldn't have said "amuck" ... but maybe that says something about my mind.

Spotlights - Travis Brown Yeah - definitely got an '80's vibe, but with modern nine-inch-nails kind of grit on it. Synths ... will always get two thumbs up from me.

"critique": Polly has a good point - I think some harmonies in the chorus might nudge this over the edge - maybe a gated or featured arp synth to give the illusion of more motion there too. I thought the first transition from verse to chorus was a bit jarring - I like the use of pitch correction and the sliced vox you used to do the transition the second time. Don't want to suggest a drum fill, 'cause I think that'd screw things up for the vibe I think you were going for, but something that smooths over the hard edge.

Vocal performance was great - very confident. Sound was fantastic - great mix. I thought just a simple 2 verse, 2 chorus song was also perfect - kept you wanting more. Nicely done!

Banter was great as usual. Only thing that I can contribute on the lyrics discussion is ... well nothing, 'cause I suck at lyrics. Seriously though - I tried a while back going to a few songwriting / lyrics boards to see if I could hook up with a "lyricist" and possibly get some inspiration for a song. I came to the same conclusion - as you guys: most of these "lyrics" were poems placed in song structure categories (verse, chorus, bridge...). Don't know, maybe if I'd checked some more out and tried to build a song around some of them, something may have come out. But, I didn't really have a connection to any of them ... didn't feel motivated.

I don't know if the cliché lyrics are ALWAYS bad. It's probably because we've "been around the block" a few too many times, but try to remember when you were first getting into music and listen to what you loved back then. A lot of the songs we grew up on back then were text-book cliché lyrics, but we (at least I) still sing along to them. I guess, I try to make writing non-cliché lyrics a goal, but not a rule. One recent guilty pleasure of mine has been a band called "Airbourne" with song titles like: "No Way but the Hard Way", "Bottom of the Well", and "It Ain't Over Till it's Over". A totally unabashed AC/DC ripoff sound, but great fun to listen to.

Looking forward to next week guys!

D

Predictable ...



Don't sell yourself too short Mr. Chick. I have enjoyed a lot of your lyrics and you don't get better unless you keep doing them. I really liked the last set you sent over. Keep working at it. I am with you. I could write tunes all day but the lyrics are the thing holding me back.

I am working on a song with someone right now (I mentioned it on the show) and the problem I have is I am just not into the subject she is writing about. I really like to have come up with the idea for the song myself. It helps me get into writing the song much more. It is a total package for me I think. Writing a song with someone else's lyrics seems like work to me, or maybe more like a gig playing cover tunes. Fun but ultimately unsatisfying. Maybe I would like it better if I found a lyricist whose work I was really into.

Dave

Or you find a lyricist who is willing to work on songs [urlx=]WITH [/urlx]you. Our ideas, our input but have them flesh things out.

Chick, your lyrics are very good, all of this modesty isn't doing you any good

Hi, guys!

Thanks for playing my song. I just got done listening to the show, and will be typing in my comments tomorrow. It's been a long day, and I'm just too tired tonight.

I haven't read any of the other posts, because I like to do mine before I see them. I'll read them right after I post mine, and then I will comment on them.

Thanks again for playing the tune.

Spotlights - Travis Brown: Although the music isn't the type I usually listen to, I thought that the mix was very crisp, with the drums punching through nicely but still leaving room for the vocal to be clearly heard. I also liked a lot of the little flourishes and twists that are in this song. Great job.

Recordus Interruptus: Fortunately, a problem I never have; my spousal overunit will even turn of the tv and keep the dog and bird quiet if I am recording while they are still up. Usually, like Dave, I am twiddling my knobs all by myself in the middle of the night, which nobody seems to mind.

Are Lyrics Important: As I have said so many times before, there seem to be two extremes concerning this: songs where the lyrics are important or even essential to the song (Nowhere Man, We Are The Champions, Teach Your Children), and songs where the lyrics are unimportant or just a rhythmic afterthought (Louie Louie, Twist and Shout, Black Horse and the Cherry Tree). The great majority of songs seem to fall somewhere in the middle, and these, IMHO, can be elevated, even to the point of being life changing, by a fortunate pairing of the well turned lyric with a sympathetic melody or series of chord changes. I believe we will still be having this discussion 10 years from now.

Re: getting off the forums: I had to laugh at this, because my 80 something mother just bitched at me for not checking in on Facebook often enough.

Lyric only writers = bad? I would have to agree, that most people who think that they can write lyrics are sadly mistaken. Most that I have run into have either been people who are just bad writers, they are novelists who can't get their writing to focus on the very short form that we have in songwriting, or they are poets who can't understand the difference between poetry and songwriting. There may be some budding Bernie Taupins out there, but I think that they must already be hanging out with the budding Elton Johns.

Dave's songs and the band: I agree that adding more talented performers to the song can add a lot to the arrangement of a song. This is really obvious in highly synergistic bands, where the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. My old band was a perfect example - three B grade musicians, but we were never out of work. We figured out ways to accent our strengths and cover our weaknesses.

Straight Up Shot - FamousPatrick: Thanks for playing my song and all of the nice things you said about it. I really appreciate the opportunity that this show gives all of us to showcase our tunes. The thing that amazes me about this song is that I still didn't write the song I wanted to, about the guy who only loved his lady a six pack's worth, so it's possible that I might spew forth that one at a future date. The comparison to Buddy Holly at the end was sweet, even if it was only for the purpose of a segue.

Midnight Shift as a euphomism for sex: That's been done in the blues for years. What do think they are singing about when they talk about eating a Jelly Roll, or Squeezing a Lemon? (Hint: Don't think about a cooking show.)

ASIO4All I have noticed latency issues with any interfaces that I had to use ASIO4All with. Now, I only buy interfaces with ASIO drivers - it's worth any extra money to avoid the frustration. I just wish that my laptop soundcard had ASIO drivers.

Justin Bieber He was just performing here in the Twin Cities, so there was a great deal of press about him, but I don't think I have ever heard a song by him.

More talk about lyrics: See above.

Let the Sunshine In - Guys From South: My favorite part of the Guys From South is the Gal; really nice to hear a woman's voice on a the show. Very well produced, but, again, not a genre I know a lot about.

Great show as usual guys. I'll post this and read and respond to the other posts.

I'm glad you liked it. The shot glass thing was an adventure, because I tried it in my family room (vaulted ceiling), studio (low ceiling with sound absorption), all three bathrooms, outside, and in my car. I couldn't even tell you which one I used, I just had them numbered. So far, my wife hasn't noticed the dents on the bottom of the cutting board.

There goes Zoey, trying to make an ass out of me again.

Funny you should ask that. There are rumors that he was once a member of the Super Spud Four, who was kicked out because his meaty rhythm guitar didn't fit in with their "roots" based music, and his "hot" licks didn't fare well in the bands refrigerated lair.

It has also been said that he is the product of a late night tryst that happened one drunken night behind Chess Records in Chicago, between a certain European visitor and a hooker from Milwaukee.

Nobody really knows, but rumors abound.


Erm ... with all modesty, that would be FamousPatrick!