terrible sound after transferring to computer

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guitarman91
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terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by guitarman91 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:54 pm

I have a zoom H2 and when I record myself playing guitar it sounds great listening through headphones plugged into the device. However, when I transfer the files from the H2 to the computer and play through the computer speakers it sound awful. The bass is very muddy and overpowering and the sound is somewhat distorted. I've tried a number of different setting and gain levels but it always sounds really bad on the computer. Does anyone know how to fix this?
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by Wulfraed » Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:17 pm

1) headphones (and especially earbud style) are not famous for low-end response -- they may be attenuating the bass that is there from the beginning
1a) if the computer has a surround sound set-up or subwoofer, possibly the subwoofer is set too high, or the cross-over frequency is off

2) what application are you using to play back the files? Does it have an EQ screen?
2a) I'm presuming you recorded in WAV format -- MP3 works by converting to frequency domain and removing what is deemed non-essential (which often includes the highest harmonics if they are below some threshold -- ignoring reports that many Zoom implementations tended to cut off at 15kHz; especially the H2)

3) where was the level meter during record? For best results, aiming for -12dB (record in 24-bit if available WAV, so you can post-process later)
3a) the H2, in particular, has a useless REC LEVEL control -- it works in the digital domain AFTER the A/D converter; common recommendation is to leave REC LEVEL at 100 and use the three-step gain control only (and for the most part, that meant lowest gain setting -- adjust the position of the H2 if you still need to reduce signal to avoid LED flickers)
3b) the only time I* found the REC LEVEL on the H2 of use is when I had one of the COMP algorithms in use, since those tend to reduce the peak of the digital signal, REC LEVEL >100 could be used to push the peak back up to -12 to -6dB.

4) If you had a COMP mode active, try without it -- especially if using COMP-3 or LIMIT modes; the stronger modes means loss of dynamics in the louder sounds, so with much of the input being leveled, the overall effect will be dull and muddy.


*I gave the h2 to my brother when I bought the H2n, which has a true (pre-ADC) record level control.
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by guitarman91 » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:30 pm

Actually my device is an H2n. I tried plugging my computer speakers directly into the H2n and it sounded great. So, it can't be the headphones or some of the other things you mentioned. As for the files, they are WAV and I am just playing them back through the default windows media player, I think it's called "groove music." But I don't see how the player would cause the problem since I play CD's and all sorts of other audio through it and it sounds good.

I'm guessing the zoom H2n is some how equalizing or enhancing the audio as it plays back whereas the raw file I transfer to my pc is not enhanced. Just a guess. I surprised there is such a difference, it's almost listenable.

I wish there was some way to get the track to sound exactly like what comes directly from the zoom. I tried for hours editing my files in audacity and could never get them to sound as good on the computer as they sounded playing off the device.
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by still_fiddlin » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:01 am

Can you post a link to the original WAV file in a download location, like Dropbox, Google Drive, or something like that? Attach it to the post (not sure what can actually be done here - may be some limitations).

Are you copying the file using the H2n as an external drive or plugging the SD card into the computer? Not that it should matter, but I'm just curious...

I used by H2 for years to record both chamber music and R&R and never encountered what you're describing.
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by Wulfraed » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:43 am

guitarman91 wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:30 pm
back through the default windows media player, I think it's called "groove music." But I don't see how the player would cause the problem since I play CD's and all sorts of other audio through it and it sounds good.
Never used that application -- I installed the long-discontinued Zune player application (I still have functioning Zune MP3 players: 80GB and 120GB hard-drive models, with around 42GB of MP3s on each).

Just opened the Win10 "Groove Music" app -- and the first thing that popped up (literally) is a "What's new in Groove". And what is it pushing? An Equalizer! Found in Settings -- most of the presets (all but FLAT and TREBLE BOOST) have around +6dB boost on bass, and -3dB on mid-range. However, you may still want to play with it (custom setting, drag down on the bass end, maybe up mid-range, or anything) to see if it improves things -- if it does I'd suggest downloading Audacity (presuming you don't have some other WAV editor* available) and use its equalizer (which has a lot more zones -- I think I saw 15 or so sliders in "graphic" mode, vs Groove's 5); then save the equalized file.

The H2n ships with WaveLab (mine has v7, Zoom site says new ones get v9). If you can get past Steinbergs flaky eLicenser system (I've NEVER managed to get CuBase licensed) you could try running the file in it -- though I can't find a graphic equalizer module in it.


* Audacity, Wavelab, Creative WaveStudio, and SoundForge appear optimized for working on one file at a time (Wavelab has a "montage" mode, but the most I understand from it is that it sequences the files, not mixes). In contrast Sonar LE (came with one of my multi-track recorders), and Cubase (if I ever got it working) are full multi-file DAWs (Strangely -- most of my "mixing" has been done using Vegas; it started life as a DAW into which video editing was grafted, and now is a video editor with pretty complex DAW capability).

Hadn't realized I had that many WAV editors installed. And only Audacity has a native EQ module; SoundForge uses iZotope plugins. Sonar LE seems to be grabbing plugins from everywhere <G>.

Gibson killed off Sonar (and the rest of CakeWalk), but BandLab sucked it up https://www.bandlab.com/products/cakewalk (and renamed it) -- Supposedly the equivalent of the full Sonar Platinum product (not just the LE) is available as a free download (with the overhead of registering at the BandLab collaboration site [suspect they expect downloaders to use them to publish stuff -- for $$]). We'll see, I've just inflicted it upon myself.

Addendum: "Cakewalk by BandLab" seems [based upon window layout] less complex than my old Sonar LE. It also sees my sound card as three separate devices: 1/2, 3/4, and 5/6; where 1/2 appear to be LF/LR, 3/4 center/subwoofer, and 5/6 RF/RR. Sonar just sees one output device and has much better sound to my mind as it [or soundcard] ends up driving most of the speakers.
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by guitarman91 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:01 pm

I uploaded an example of a problem file to google drive: https://drive.google.com/open?id=17xdRT ... LWq1YPkxpK

I've been using a usb cable to transfer the files from the zoom to my pc.
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by still_fiddlin » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:05 pm

The recorded file doesn't have the symptoms you describe, but it's recorded much too "hot" and maybe that's confusing the player, though I suspect @Wulfraed may be correct about the player applying some EQ that's causing the problem, perhaps exacerbated because of the peak levels in that file exceeding 0dB.

You need to dial that recorder back so the peaks of your recorded tracks are well below 0dB, perhaps no higher than -10dB (and select 24-bit recording!).

It's during the mixing step that you'll lift the level up and apply necessary compression/limiting to keep the peaks below 0dB.

I reduced the gain on the track by -8dB, then using a tiny bit of compression and a limiter, lifted it back up so the overall loudness is about the same as yours.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eyc0ahk8phzzn ... x.wav?dl=0

If it plays with the same problem, then definitely dig into that player to see what's going on, or try something else. (VLC is a popular freeware player.)

P.S. (edit): I bounced out an MP3 with the loudness level set to a kind of non-standard norm for streaming of -14dB LUFS and limited at -1.0dB. I'm curious if it plays any differently for you.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c8re7jbif324f ... x.mp3?dl=0
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by Wulfraed » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:22 am

still_fiddlin wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:05 pm
because of the peak levels in that file exceeding 0dB.
:roll: :?:

Digital file -- pretty much by definition they are clipped at 0dB (which is what SoundForge* displayed for the left channel peak for that spike at 0:45.1, right channel was -0.7dB). I did bring up a loudness meter display, but I'm not sure how to interpret it -- the scales didn't make much sense at my level of experience; time to dig up the manual. :book:

Okay, that makes some sense, and yes -- the overall loudness of the file exceeds broadcast standards (both EBU [-23LUFS, -1dBFS] and ATSC [-24LUFS, -2dbFS]) by a bit over 10 Loudness Units. Not that I can talk -- I tend to normalize WAV files to -0.1dB after I've applied any processing to them, with the result that they too are rather over the broadcast standard loudness. Loudness log file following the footnote... Target for "Integ" is -23/-24
You need to dial that recorder back so the peaks of your recorded tracks are well below 0dB, perhaps no higher than -10dB (and select 24-bit recording!).
Concur

I'd also experiment with different placement of the recorder. The hint of bass rumble might be from being too close to the guitar body, and getting close-mic bass enhancement (and I'll reiterate, if monitoring with small headphones/ear-buds, they are likely attenuating the bass -- try with full around/over-ear studio headphones). I seem to recall suggestions to place microphones near the 12-fret, and then aim toward the sound-hole, rather than directly in front of it.

Also, which side of the H2n was in use? the M/S or the X/Y (presuming one is facing the display while playing the instrument, most likely the X/Y were in use). Make sure the LED on top does not flicker -- if it does, the signal has clipped.



* Strange, for some reason today it is telling me it needs registration, but if run with Admin privileges it is coming up showing my registered state.



Code: Select all

Log updated: 	08/23/2018 09:53:09 

Media: 		C:\Users\Wulfraed\Documents\ZOOM0215.wav 

Log file: 	C:\Users\Wulfraed\Documents\ZOOM0215_loud.txt 

Format: 	16-bit PCM data, 2 channels @ 44100 Hz

Algorithm: 	Surround processing turned: OFF





Loudness calculations: 


              Pos.	     Time	Mom.(LUFS)	Short(LUFS)	Integ.(LUFS)	Dyn.(LU)


            8192	00:00:00.185	-48.72		-57.47		-49.08		 12.30
           16384	00:00:00.371	-48.03		-56.78		-48.69		 13.00
           24576	00:00:00.557	-46.02		-54.24		-47.82		  4.10
           32768	00:00:00.743	-47.28		-53.38		-47.69		  4.90
           40960	00:00:00.928	-48.49		-52.58		-47.89		  5.70
           49152	00:00:01.114	-37.17		-45.20		-44.98		  5.90
           57344	00:00:01.300	-17.70		-26.44		-18.30		 28.40
           65536	00:00:01.486	-13.96		-22.68		-16.60		 22.50
           73728	00:00:01.671	-12.37		-20.27		-15.37		 24.90
           81920	00:00:01.857	-11.06		-18.90		-13.77		 26.30
           90112	00:00:02.043	-12.37		-18.79		-13.75		  9.00
           98304	00:00:02.229	-19.42		-18.69		-14.44		  9.00
          106496	00:00:02.414	-22.84		-18.59		-15.05		  9.20
          114688	00:00:02.600	-21.24		-18.38		-15.55		  7.80
          122880	00:00:02.786	-20.65		-18.24		-15.93		  8.10
          131072	00:00:02.972	-20.14		-18.19		-16.08		  8.20
          139264	00:00:03.157	-21.74		-18.08		-16.42		  8.30
          147456	00:00:03.343	-23.00		-18.01		-16.74		  8.30
          155648	00:00:03.529	-23.67		-17.93		-17.04		  8.40
          163840	00:00:03.715	-14.58		-16.89		-17.04		  8.20
          172032	00:00:03.900	-11.63		-15.97		-16.41		  9.80
          180224	00:00:04.086	-11.39		-15.81		-15.99		 10.20
          188416	00:00:04.272	-16.71		-16.08		-16.01		 10.10
          196608	00:00:04.458	-19.27		-16.00		-16.17		 10.10
          204800	00:00:04.643	-18.88		-16.46		-16.28		  6.70
          212992	00:00:04.829	-13.87		-16.96		-16.23		  6.70
          221184	00:00:05.015	-11.22		-16.03		-15.83		  6.70
          229376	00:00:05.201	-11.22		-15.93		-15.56		  6.80
          237568	00:00:05.387	-16.36		-15.89		-15.64		  6.80
          245760	00:00:05.572	-19.47		-15.78		-15.70		  6.80
          253952	00:00:05.758	-19.56		-15.85		-15.82		  4.40
          262144	00:00:05.944	-20.09		-15.82		-15.94		  4.50
          270336	00:00:06.130	-20.93		-15.82		-16.06		  4.50
          278528	00:00:06.315	-21.48		-15.82		-16.19		  4.50
          286720	00:00:06.501	-24.91		-15.84		-16.33		  4.50
          294912	00:00:06.687	-21.39		-15.79		-16.45		  3.50
          303104	00:00:06.873	-21.37		-17.11		-16.50		  3.50
          311296	00:00:07.058	-20.49		-17.44		-16.59		  3.50
          319488	00:00:07.244	-20.70		-17.51		-16.68		  3.50
          327680	00:00:07.430	-20.70		-17.46		-16.77		  3.50


              Pos.	     Time	Mom.(LUFS)	Short(LUFS)	Integ.(LUFS)	Dyn.(LU)


          335872	00:00:07.616	-21.66		-17.71		-16.86		  3.10
          344064	00:00:07.801	-22.06		-17.82		-16.96		  3.20
          352256	00:00:07.987	-19.85		-20.34		-17.03		  4.50
          360448	00:00:08.173	-19.20		-20.93		-17.06		  4.50
          368640	00:00:08.359	-18.97		-20.96		-17.10		  5.10
          376832	00:00:08.544	-21.21		-21.08		-17.18		  5.20
          385024	00:00:08.730	-23.34		-21.45		-17.27		  5.30
          393216	00:00:08.916	-24.28		-21.55		-17.36		  5.60
          401408	00:00:09.102	-17.93		-20.85		-17.41		  5.70
          409600	00:00:09.287	-15.43		-20.05		-17.37		  5.70
          417792	00:00:09.473	-15.00		-19.84		-17.33		  5.70
          425984	00:00:09.659	-16.70		-19.72		-17.33		  5.60
          434176	00:00:09.845	-19.94		-19.68		-17.38		  5.60
          442368	00:00:10.031	-19.86		-19.65		-17.42		  5.60
          450560	00:00:10.216	-14.95		-18.57		-17.41		  5.60
          458752	00:00:10.402	-11.99		-17.44		-17.21		  5.60
          466944	00:00:10.588	-11.66		-17.28		-17.04		  5.60
          475136	00:00:10.774	-16.56		-17.32		-17.04		  5.60
          483328	00:00:10.959	-20.34		-17.29		-17.09		  5.60
          491520	00:00:11.145	-21.42		-17.38		-17.15		  5.60
          499712	00:00:11.331	-20.26		-17.39		-17.20		  5.60
          507904	00:00:11.517	-20.42		-17.35		-17.24		  5.60
          516096	00:00:11.702	-20.36		-17.33		-17.29		  5.30
          524288	00:00:11.888	-23.51		-17.32		-17.36		  5.30
          532480	00:00:12.074	-23.65		-17.32		-17.39		  5.30
          540672	00:00:12.260	-23.95		-17.73		-17.45		  5.30
          548864	00:00:12.445	-16.77		-17.66		-17.47		  5.30
          557056	00:00:12.631	-13.48		-17.02		-17.38		  5.20
          565248	00:00:12.817	-13.31		-16.93		-17.29		  5.20
          573440	00:00:13.003	-17.79		-17.03		-17.32		  5.20
          581632	00:00:13.188	-20.93		-16.97		-17.36		  5.20
          589824	00:00:13.374	-21.12		-18.55		-17.38		  5.20
          598016	00:00:13.560	-14.18		-17.94		-17.35		  5.20
          606208	00:00:13.746	-11.99		-17.11		-17.20		  5.20
          614400	00:00:13.931	-12.44		-16.88		-17.09		  5.20
          622592	00:00:14.117	-14.98		-16.48		-17.06		  5.20
          630784	00:00:14.303	-13.06		-15.87		-16.97		  5.20
          638976	00:00:14.489	-14.07		-15.89		-16.91		  5.20
          647168	00:00:14.675	-17.89		-15.89		-16.92		  5.10
          655360	00:00:14.860	-22.81		-15.89		-16.97		  5.10


              Pos.	     Time	Mom.(LUFS)	Short(LUFS)	Integ.(LUFS)	Dyn.(LU)


          663552	00:00:15.046	-19.50		-15.74		-17.00		  5.10
          671744	00:00:15.232	-16.01		-15.44		-17.00		  5.10
          679936	00:00:15.418	-15.19		-15.27		-16.97		  5.10
          688128	00:00:15.603	-15.00		-15.83		-16.96		  5.10
          696320	00:00:15.789	-18.89		-15.93		-16.98		  5.10
          704512	00:00:15.975	-18.70		-15.90		-16.99		  5.10
          712704	00:00:16.161	-19.77		-15.93		-17.02		  5.10
          720896	00:00:16.346	-22.77		-15.99		-17.06		  5.10
          729088	00:00:16.532	-24.66		-16.22		-17.11		  5.10
          737280	00:00:16.718	-23.54		-17.36		-17.15		  5.00
          745472	00:00:16.904	-21.46		-17.70		-17.19		  5.00
          753664	00:00:17.089	-21.24		-18.20		-17.23		  5.00
          761856	00:00:17.275	-22.08		-19.24		-17.24		  5.00
          770048	00:00:17.461	-20.33		-19.53		-17.28		  5.00
          778240	00:00:17.647	-18.94		-19.38		-17.29		  4.60
          786432	00:00:17.832	-15.17		-18.38		-17.29		  4.60
          794624	00:00:18.018	-13.60		-18.03		-17.23		  4.60
          802816	00:00:18.204	-13.38		-17.98		-17.19		  4.60
          811008	00:00:18.390	-19.51		-18.98		-17.22		  4.60
          819200	00:00:18.575	-23.71		-19.10		-17.24		  4.60
          827392	00:00:18.761	-17.31		-18.70		-17.25		  4.50
          835584	00:00:18.947	-13.71		-17.91		-17.22		  4.50
          843776	00:00:19.133	-11.60		-16.67		-17.10		  4.50
          851968	00:00:19.319	-11.38		-16.46		-17.00		  4.50
          860160	00:00:19.504	-15.78		-16.46		-17.00		  4.50
          868352	00:00:19.690	-22.95		-16.46		-17.04		  4.50
          876544	00:00:19.876	-23.71		-16.49		-17.05		  4.50
          884736	00:00:20.062	-21.29		-16.46		-17.09		  4.50
          892928	00:00:20.247	-19.42		-16.36		-17.11		  4.50
          901120	00:00:20.433	-19.09		-16.34		-17.13		  4.50
          909312	00:00:20.619	-21.42		-16.49		-17.16		  4.20
          917504	00:00:20.805	-21.30		-16.46		-17.18		  4.20
          925696	00:00:20.990	-22.81		-17.43		-17.22		  4.20
          933888	00:00:21.176	-15.64		-16.96		-17.21		  4.20
          942080	00:00:21.362	-11.16		-15.72		-17.10		  4.20
          950272	00:00:21.548	-10.68		-15.54		-16.98		  4.20
          958464	00:00:21.733	-14.72		-15.68		-16.98		  4.10
          966656	00:00:21.919	-21.72		-15.88		-17.01		  4.10
          974848	00:00:22.105	-22.18		-17.05		-17.04		  4.10
          983040	00:00:22.291	-12.97		-16.38		-17.00		  4.10


              Pos.	     Time	Mom.(LUFS)	Short(LUFS)	Integ.(LUFS)	Dyn.(LU)


          991232	00:00:22.476	-11.34		-15.85		-16.95		  4.10
          999424	00:00:22.662	-10.75		-15.58		-16.83		  4.20
         1007616	00:00:22.848	-14.11		-15.57		-16.82		  4.20
         1015808	00:00:23.034	-20.54		-15.54		-16.84		  4.20
         1024000	00:00:23.219	-20.53		-15.62		-16.87		  4.30
         1032192	00:00:23.405	-20.90		-15.60		-16.89		  4.30
         1040384	00:00:23.591	-20.81		-15.59		-16.91		  4.20
         1048576	00:00:23.777	-21.09		-15.62		-16.93		  4.20
         1056768	00:00:23.962	-22.76		-15.63		-16.96		  4.20
         1064960	00:00:24.148	-20.99		-15.62		-16.98		  4.20
         1073152	00:00:24.334	-19.70		-16.71		-17.00		  4.20
         1081344	00:00:24.520	-18.63		-17.38		-17.01		  4.20
         1089536	00:00:24.706	-17.82		-17.21		-17.02		  4.20
         1097728	00:00:24.891	-17.95		-17.16		-17.03		  4.20
         1105920	00:00:25.077	-20.21		-17.18		-17.04		  4.20
         1114112	00:00:25.263	-21.69		-17.18		-17.07		  4.20
         1122304	00:00:25.449	-26.08		-18.97		-17.08		  4.20
         1130496	00:00:25.634	-23.18		-20.84		-17.11		  4.30
         1138688	00:00:25.820	-22.34		-20.85		-17.14		  4.40
         1146880	00:00:26.006	-21.83		-20.97		-17.16		  4.70
         1155072	00:00:26.192	-23.18		-21.17		-17.19		  4.80
         1163264	00:00:26.377	-18.61		-20.58		-17.19		  5.00
         1171456	00:00:26.563	-17.57		-20.50		-17.20		  5.00
         1179648	00:00:26.749	-15.53		-19.42		-17.19		  4.90
         1187840	00:00:26.935	-14.16		-18.70		-17.16		  4.90
         1196032	00:00:27.120	-13.84		-18.46		-17.13		  4.90
         1204224	00:00:27.306	-16.77		-18.47		-17.13		  4.90
         1212416	00:00:27.492	-18.61		-18.46		-17.14		  4.90
         1220608	00:00:27.678	-20.41		-18.72		-17.15		  4.90
         1228800	00:00:27.863	-13.81		-17.53		-17.14		  4.90
         1236992	00:00:28.049	-10.86		-16.36		-17.05		  4.90
         1245184	00:00:28.235	-10.57		-16.16		-16.97		  4.90
         1253376	00:00:28.421	-15.50		-16.12		-16.97		  4.90
         1261568	00:00:28.606	-22.00		-16.09		-16.99		  4.80
         1269760	00:00:28.792	-22.53		-16.13		-17.01		  4.80
         1277952	00:00:28.978	-21.17		-16.07		-17.02		  4.80
         1286144	00:00:29.164	-20.68		-16.04		-17.04		  4.80
         1294336	00:00:29.350	-20.15		-16.03		-17.06		  4.80
         1302528	00:00:29.535	-22.21		-16.30		-17.08		  4.80
         1310720	00:00:29.721	-21.58		-16.36		-17.10		  4.80


              Pos.	     Time	Mom.(LUFS)	Short(LUFS)	Integ.(LUFS)	Dyn.(LU)


         1318912	00:00:29.907	-22.57		-17.06		-17.12		  4.80
         1327104	00:00:30.093	-21.05		-17.35		-17.14		  4.80
         1335296	00:00:30.278	-19.52		-17.36		-17.15		  4.80
         1343488	00:00:30.464	-18.50		-17.34		-17.16		  4.80
         1351680	00:00:30.650	-18.88		-17.32		-17.17		  4.70
         1359872	00:00:30.836	-20.04		-17.32		-17.19		  4.70
         1368064	00:00:31.021	-23.04		-19.83		-17.21		  4.80
         1376256	00:00:31.207	-13.45		-18.95		-17.19		  4.80
         1384448	00:00:31.393	-11.82		-18.15		-17.12		  4.80
         1392640	00:00:31.579	-13.49		-18.16		-17.10		  4.80
         1400832	00:00:31.764	-14.60		-17.73		-17.09		  4.70
         1409024	00:00:31.950	-12.23		-16.53		-17.04		  4.70
         1417216	00:00:32.136	-12.65		-16.44		-16.99		  4.70
         1425408	00:00:32.322	-15.45		-16.44		-17.00		  4.70
         1433600	00:00:32.507	-22.09		-16.43		-17.02		  4.70
         1441792	00:00:32.693	-20.13		-16.38		-17.03		  4.70
         1449984	00:00:32.879	-20.19		-16.36		-17.04		  4.70
         1458176	00:00:33.065	-15.94		-15.94		-17.03		  4.70
         1466368	00:00:33.250	-15.93		-15.99		-17.02		  4.70
         1474560	00:00:33.436	-19.52		-15.99		-17.04		  4.70
         1482752	00:00:33.622	-18.34		-15.92		-17.04		  4.60
         1490944	00:00:33.808	-19.32		-15.95		-17.06		  4.60
         1499136	00:00:33.994	-22.76		-15.93		-17.08		  4.60
         1507328	00:00:34.179	-23.64		-16.44		-17.09		  4.60
         1515520	00:00:34.365	-22.33		-16.98		-17.11		  4.60
         1523712	00:00:34.551	-22.81		-17.58		-17.12		  4.60
         1531904	00:00:34.737	-22.64		-17.92		-17.14		  4.40
         1540096	00:00:34.922	-22.72		-18.99		-17.16		  4.40
         1548288	00:00:35.108	-23.96		-20.24		-17.18		  4.60
         1556480	00:00:35.294	-23.31		-20.25		-17.20		  4.70
         1564672	00:00:35.480	-22.10		-20.25		-17.21		  4.70
         1572864	00:00:35.665	-15.81		-19.26		-17.21		  4.70
         1581056	00:00:35.851	-14.87		-19.03		-17.19		  4.70
         1589248	00:00:36.037	-16.49		-19.92		-17.20		  4.70
         1597440	00:00:36.223	-22.51		-20.06		-17.21		  4.70
         1605632	00:00:36.408	-16.37		-19.38		-17.22		  4.70
         1613824	00:00:36.594	-12.83		-18.28		-17.18		  4.70
         1622016	00:00:36.780	-12.36		-18.05		-17.16		  4.70
         1630208	00:00:36.966	-13.40		-17.77		-17.14		  4.70
         1638400	00:00:37.151	-17.22		-17.54		-17.14		  4.70


              Pos.	     Time	Mom.(LUFS)	Short(LUFS)	Integ.(LUFS)	Dyn.(LU)


         1646592	00:00:37.337	-15.08		-16.98		-17.12		  4.70
         1654784	00:00:37.523	-13.62		-16.44		-17.10		  4.70
         1662976	00:00:37.709	-12.81		-15.80		-17.06		  4.60
         1671168	00:00:37.894	-12.63		-15.56		-17.03		  4.60
         1679360	00:00:38.080	-15.37		-15.45		-17.02		  4.60
         1687552	00:00:38.266	-16.96		-15.44		-17.03		  4.60
         1695744	00:00:38.452	-19.32		-15.42		-17.04		  4.60
         1703936	00:00:38.638	-21.38		-15.63		-17.05		  4.60
         1712128	00:00:38.823	-20.07		-15.93		-17.07		  4.60
         1720320	00:00:39.009	-20.11		-15.87		-17.08		  4.60
         1728512	00:00:39.195	-21.14		-15.86		-17.09		  4.60
         1736704	00:00:39.381	-19.42		-15.78		-17.10		  4.60
         1744896	00:00:39.566	-15.08		-15.84		-17.09		  4.60
         1753088	00:00:39.752	-14.70		-16.35		-17.07		  4.60
         1761280	00:00:39.938	-16.89		-16.44		-17.07		  4.60
         1769472	00:00:40.124	-18.51		-16.45		-17.08		  4.60
         1777664	00:00:40.309	-20.89		-16.95		-17.10		  4.60
         1785856	00:00:40.495	-21.67		-17.13		-17.11		  4.60
         1794048	00:00:40.681	-22.67		-18.41		-17.12		  4.50
         1802240	00:00:40.867	-20.89		-18.80		-17.13		  4.50
         1810432	00:00:41.052	-19.32		-18.99		-17.14		  4.50
         1818624	00:00:41.238	-18.68		-19.12		-17.15		  4.50
         1826816	00:00:41.424	-17.07		-18.59		-17.15		  4.50
         1835008	00:00:41.610	-16.18		-18.39		-17.15		  4.50
         1843200	00:00:41.795	-17.18		-18.34		-17.15		  4.50
         1851392	00:00:41.981	-17.42		-18.11		-17.15		  4.50
         1859584	00:00:42.167	-17.56		-18.03		-17.15		  4.50
         1867776	00:00:42.353	-18.22		-18.00		-17.16		  4.50
         1875968	00:00:42.538	-20.39		-18.67		-17.17		  4.50
         1884160	00:00:42.724	-18.59		-18.92		-17.18		  4.40
         1892352	00:00:42.910	-17.70		-18.89		-17.19		  4.40
         1900544	00:00:43.096	-17.18		-18.61		-17.19		  4.40
         1908736	00:00:43.281	-16.95		-18.53		-17.19		  4.40
         1916928	00:00:43.467	-17.76		-18.35		-17.19		  4.40
         1925120	00:00:43.653	-17.25		-18.01		-17.19		  4.40
         1933312	00:00:43.839	-16.29		-17.78		-17.19		  4.40
         1941504	00:00:44.025	-15.07		-17.35		-17.18		  4.40
         1949696	00:00:44.210	-12.35		-16.39		-17.15		  4.40
         1957888	00:00:44.396	-11.94		-16.23		-17.10		  4.40
         1966080	00:00:44.582	-12.45		-16.05		-17.08		  4.40


              Pos.	     Time	Mom.(LUFS)	Short(LUFS)	Integ.(LUFS)	Dyn.(LU)


         1974272	00:00:44.768	-13.77		-15.89		-17.06		  4.40
         1982464	00:00:44.953	-12.17		-15.15		-17.04		  4.40
         1990656	00:00:45.139	 -8.44		-13.70		-16.95		  4.40
         1998848	00:00:45.325	 -7.25		-12.83		-16.80		  4.40
         2007040	00:00:45.511	 -7.57		-12.61		-16.69		  4.40
         2015232	00:00:45.696	-12.56		-12.60		-16.67		  4.30
         2023424	00:00:45.882	-14.87		-12.51		-16.67		  4.30
         2031616	00:00:46.068	-14.73		-12.44		-16.66		  4.30
         2039808	00:00:46.254	-13.59		-12.27		-16.64		  4.40
         2048000	00:00:46.439	-13.28		-12.14		-16.62		  4.40
         2056192	00:00:46.625	-13.21		-12.14		-16.60		  4.50
         2064384	00:00:46.811	-16.85		-12.16		-16.61		  4.50
         2072576	00:00:46.997	-18.36		-12.21		-16.61		  4.50
         2080768	00:00:47.182	-20.11		-12.47		-16.62		  4.60
         2088960	00:00:47.368	-14.46		-12.49		-16.62		  4.80
         2097152	00:00:47.554	-13.05		-12.48		-16.59		  6.80
         2105344	00:00:47.740	-13.15		-12.58		-16.57		  7.20
         2113536	00:00:47.925	-17.50		-12.63		-16.58		  7.30
         2121728	00:00:48.111	-15.36		-13.03		-16.58		  7.30
         2129920	00:00:48.297	-14.67		-14.72		-16.57		  7.20
         2138112	00:00:48.483	-16.17		-15.28		-16.57		  7.20
         2146304	00:00:48.669	-17.96		-15.45		-16.57		  7.20
         2154496	00:00:48.854	-18.91		-15.50		-16.58		  7.20
         2162688	00:00:49.040	-21.00		-15.99		-16.60		  7.20
         2170880	00:00:49.226	-21.86		-16.12		-16.61		  7.20
         2179072	00:00:49.412	-22.57		-17.08		-16.63		  7.20
         2187264	00:00:49.597	-22.87		-17.27		-16.64		  7.10
         2195456	00:00:49.783	-23.14		-17.58		-16.65		  7.10
         2203648	00:00:49.969	-19.05		-17.33		-16.66		  7.10
         2211840	00:00:50.155	-17.89		-17.31		-16.66		  7.10
         2220032	00:00:50.340	-19.93		-17.52		-16.67		  7.00
         2228224	00:00:50.526	-22.87		-18.82		-16.69		  7.00
         2236416	00:00:50.712	-11.62		-16.98		-16.66		  7.00
         2244608	00:00:50.898	 -9.91		-16.14		-16.60		  7.00
         2252800	00:00:51.083	-10.12		-15.98		-16.56		  7.00
         2260992	00:00:51.269	-12.37		-16.21		-16.55		  7.00
         2269184	00:00:51.455	-15.19		-16.12		-16.54		  7.00
         2277376	00:00:51.641	-17.02		-16.14		-16.55		  7.00
         2285568	00:00:51.826	-17.32		-15.94		-16.55		  7.00
         2293760	00:00:52.012	-16.32		-15.77		-16.55		  7.00


              Pos.	     Time	Mom.(LUFS)	Short(LUFS)	Integ.(LUFS)	Dyn.(LU)


         2301952	00:00:52.198	-16.05		-15.69		-16.55		  6.80
         2310144	00:00:52.384	-19.27		-15.67		-16.55		  6.80
         2318336	00:00:52.569	-20.39		-15.66		-16.56		  6.80
         2326528	00:00:52.755	-19.43		-15.53		-16.57		  6.80
         2334720	00:00:52.941	-19.59		-15.68		-16.58		  6.80
         2342912	00:00:53.127	-22.34		-15.76		-16.60		  6.80
         2351104	00:00:53.313	-20.58		-15.72		-16.61		  6.80
         2359296	00:00:53.498	-21.11		-15.71		-16.62		  6.80
         2367488	00:00:53.684	-22.97		-16.26		-16.63		  6.80
         2375680	00:00:53.870	-24.77		-17.44		-16.64		  6.80
         2383872	00:00:54.056	-16.80		-18.71		-16.64		  6.80
         2392064	00:00:54.241	-13.35		-17.89		-16.62		  6.70
         2400256	00:00:54.427	-12.85		-17.86		-16.60		  6.70
         2408448	00:00:54.613	-15.55		-17.85		-16.60		  6.60
         2416640	00:00:54.799	-16.38		-17.70		-16.60		  6.60
         2424832	00:00:54.984	-15.95		-17.73		-16.60		  6.60
         2433024	00:00:55.170	-13.80		-17.19		-16.59		  6.60
         2441216	00:00:55.356	-13.33		-16.71		-16.57		  6.60
         2449408	00:00:55.542	-13.04		-16.42		-16.55		  6.60
         2457600	00:00:55.727	-16.46		-16.50		-16.55		  6.60
         2465792	00:00:55.913	-17.94		-16.39		-16.56		  6.60
         2473984	00:00:56.099	-20.53		-16.40		-16.57		  6.60
         2482176	00:00:56.285	-19.54		-16.33		-16.57		  6.60
         2490368	00:00:56.470	-18.48		-16.24		-16.58		  6.60
         2498560	00:00:56.656	-18.14		-16.16		-16.59		  6.60
         2506752	00:00:56.842	-20.20		-16.11		-16.60		  6.60
         2514944	00:00:57.028	-17.17		-15.96		-16.61		  6.60
         2523136	00:00:57.213	-16.20		-16.47		-16.61		  6.60
         2531328	00:00:57.399	-17.00		-16.75		-16.61		  6.60
         2539520	00:00:57.585	-20.19		-16.96		-16.61		  6.60
         2547712	00:00:57.771	-20.15		-16.95		-16.62		  6.60
         2555904	00:00:57.957	-22.10		-17.44		-16.63		  6.60
         2564096	00:00:58.142	-23.29		-17.64		-16.65		  6.60
         2572288	00:00:58.328	-23.42		-19.05		-16.66		  6.00
         2580480	00:00:58.514	-22.97		-19.48		-16.67		  6.00
         2588672	00:00:58.700	-22.18		-19.93		-16.68		  6.00
         2596864	00:00:58.885	-19.75		-19.79		-16.69		  6.10
         2605056	00:00:59.071	-16.64		-19.25		-16.69		  6.10
         2613248	00:00:59.257	-15.68		-19.10		-16.69		  6.10
         2621440	00:00:59.443	-16.31		-19.16		-16.69		  6.10


              Pos.	     Time	Mom.(LUFS)	Short(LUFS)	Integ.(LUFS)	Dyn.(LU)


         2629632	00:00:59.628	-17.18		-18.88		-16.69		  6.00
         2637824	00:00:59.814	-17.29		-18.81		-16.69		  6.00
         2646016	00:01:00.000	-18.97		-19.01		-16.70		  6.00
         2654208	00:01:00.186	-15.45		-18.61		-16.70		  5.70
         2662400	00:01:00.371	-14.36		-18.30		-16.69		  5.70
         2670592	00:01:00.557	-14.45		-18.14		-16.69		  5.70
         2678784	00:01:00.743	-15.74		-17.82		-16.68		  5.70
         2686976	00:01:00.929	-17.03		-17.61		-16.69		  5.70
         2695168	00:01:01.114	-18.52		-17.50		-16.69		  5.70
         2703360	00:01:01.300	-17.52		-17.19		-16.69		  5.70
         2711552	00:01:01.486	-16.91		-17.03		-16.69		  5.70
         2719744	00:01:01.672	-17.03		-16.91		-16.69		  5.70
         2727936	00:01:01.857	-11.58		-15.55		-16.67		  5.70
         2736128	00:01:02.043	 -9.79		-15.02		-16.62		  5.70
         2744320	00:01:02.229	-10.79		-14.72		-16.57		  5.00
         2752512	00:01:02.415	-13.30		-14.64		-16.56		  5.10
         2760704	00:01:02.600	-12.09		-14.04		-16.55		  5.70
         2768896	00:01:02.786	 -9.41		-13.23		-16.50		  5.70
         2777088	00:01:02.972	 -8.29		-12.81		-16.47		  6.00
         2785280	00:01:03.158	 -9.04		-12.67		-16.40		  6.60
         2793472	00:01:03.344	-11.26		-12.70		-16.38		  6.70
         2801664	00:01:03.529	-16.27		-12.78		-16.38		  6.90
         2809856	00:01:03.715	-14.03		-12.57		-16.37		  6.70
         2818048	00:01:03.901	-13.16		-12.47		-16.36		  6.80
         2826240	00:01:04.087	-11.90		-12.07		-16.34		  6.80
         2834432	00:01:04.272	-11.97		-12.10		-16.33		  6.80
         2842624	00:01:04.458	-12.14		-12.03		-16.31		  6.90
         2850816	00:01:04.644	-15.42		-11.99		-16.31		  6.90
         2859008	00:01:04.830	-16.61		-12.32		-16.31		  6.90
         2867200	00:01:05.015	-19.98		-12.86		-16.32		  6.90
         2875392	00:01:05.201	-16.13		-13.00		-16.32		  6.90
         2883584	00:01:05.387	-15.74		-13.09		-16.32		  6.90
         2891776	00:01:05.573	-17.51		-13.13		-16.32		  6.90
         2899968	00:01:05.758	-19.26		-13.68		-16.33		  6.90
         2908160	00:01:05.944	-17.10		-14.52		-16.33		  6.90
         2916352	00:01:06.130	-16.74		-15.33		-16.33		  6.90
         2924544	00:01:06.316	-18.00		-15.61		-16.34		  6.90
         2932736	00:01:06.501	-20.51		-15.67		-16.35		  6.90
         2940928	00:01:06.687	-20.67		-16.14		-16.35		  6.80
         2949120	00:01:06.873	-20.63		-16.43		-16.36		  6.80


              Pos.	     Time	Mom.(LUFS)	Short(LUFS)	Integ.(LUFS)	Dyn.(LU)


         2957312	00:01:07.059	-20.59		-16.69		-16.37		  6.80
         2965504	00:01:07.244	-20.79		-18.09		-16.38		  6.80
         2973696	00:01:07.430	-20.59		-18.41		-16.38		  6.80
         2981888	00:01:07.616	-19.36		-18.88		-16.39		  6.80
         2990080	00:01:07.802	-18.03		-18.67		-16.40		  6.80
         2998272	00:01:07.988	-17.52		-18.60		-16.40		  6.80
         3006464	00:01:08.173	-19.14		-19.11		-16.40		  6.80
         3014656	00:01:08.359	-20.20		-19.35		-16.41		  6.80
         3022848	00:01:08.545	-13.38		-17.95		-16.41		  6.80
         3031040	00:01:08.731	-11.59		-17.14		-16.38		  6.80
         3039232	00:01:08.916	-11.26		-16.80		-16.36		  6.80
         3047424	00:01:09.102	-14.87		-16.92		-16.36		  6.80
         3055616	00:01:09.288	-17.81		-16.76		-16.36		  6.80
         3063808	00:01:09.474	-18.00		-16.76		-16.36		  6.80
         3072000	00:01:09.659	-18.37		-16.62		-16.37		  6.80
         3080192	00:01:09.845	-17.04		-16.46		-16.37		  6.80
         3088384	00:01:10.031	-16.50		-16.42		-16.37		  6.80
         3096576	00:01:10.217	-19.20		-16.41		-16.38		  6.80
         3104768	00:01:10.402	-21.70		-16.46		-16.39		  6.80
         3112960	00:01:10.588	-22.61		-16.48		-16.40		  6.80
         3121152	00:01:10.774	-23.94		-16.73		-16.40		  6.80
         3129344	00:01:10.960	-22.76		-16.81		-16.41		  6.80
         3137536	00:01:11.145	-19.65		-16.76		-16.42		  6.80
         3145728	00:01:11.331	-19.37		-16.74		-16.43		  6.80
         3153920	00:01:11.517	-20.83		-17.10		-16.43		  6.80
         3162112	00:01:11.703	-22.61		-18.70		-16.44		  6.80
         3170304	00:01:11.888	-24.64		-20.00		-16.45		  6.80
         3178496	00:01:12.074	-26.70		-20.26		-16.45		  6.80
         3186688	00:01:12.260	-27.69		-20.49		-16.45		  6.90
         3194880	00:01:12.446	-29.52		-21.17		-16.45		  6.90
         3203072	00:01:12.632	-30.81		-21.35		-16.45		  6.90
         3211264	00:01:12.817	-31.16		-22.72		-16.45		  7.10
         3219456	00:01:13.003	-30.68		-23.51		-16.45		  7.10
         3227648	00:01:13.189	-31.23		-24.15		-16.45		  7.20
         3235840	00:01:13.375	-34.18		-24.43		-16.45		  7.20
         3244032	00:01:13.560	-39.37		-24.96		-16.45		  7.20
         3251904	00:01:13.739	-34.30		-25.07		-16.45		  7.20




---------------------------

Results:



Mom. (max): 	 -7.25 (LUFS) at 00:00:45.325

Short (max): 	-11.99 (LUFS) at 00:01:04.644
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Baron Wulfraed
IISS Elusive Unicorn (detached)

Superscope PSD-300; BOSS BR-600, Zoom HD16cd, Zoom R16, BOSS BR-800, Zoom H2n
Now to (re)learn to play an instrument

Lanikai S-C, SMC-E; GoldTone Banjo-Uke; Flatiron 1C, A5; Big Muddy M1-W; Ovation MM68AX, CSE-44; Orpheus Valley Fiesta FS; Taylor NS-72ce, T5-S1; Musima (4st, 20 fret, tenor-tuned) banjo; bongos, dumbeks, bodhrans, hand drum, tambourine; recorder: soprano, alto, tenor; Cedar Flute (5 sizes); Pennywhistle (3 keys); Casio keyboards

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still_fiddlin
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by still_fiddlin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:20 am

Actually, the integrated (overall) loudness of the original track is not high and only exceeds iTunes standard of -17dB LUFS by a bit; but it's the peaks that are the problem. Here are the measurement of the integrated loudness of the original WAV and then the MP3, which was compressed to meet the -14dB LUFS number a lot of folks aim for. (-14dB LUFS being YouTube's standard, apparently, so where others cluster, if they're doing any kind of loudness normalization.)
WAV measurment(s)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k1bkpsbrjsf3j ... udness.png

MP3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q27x7bekmfsif ... udness.png

P.S. The bbcode img tags didn't like these links?
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by Wulfraed » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:35 pm

I was citing the broadcast standards listed in the SoundForge manual (unfortunately, "secured" PDF so I can't cut&paste):

EBU R 128 (European Broadcast Union) -- Integrated meter target -23LUFS and true peak -1dBFS
ATSC A 85 (Advanced Television Systems Committee) -- meter target -24LUFS, true pead -2dBFS

On those standards, it was running about 10LU above target (2 seconds in was -13.5LU, though most was -16.5LU).

It's the first time I've seen such a description (as mentioned, my old practice was to apply just a bit of compression followed by normalization -- primarily in Vegas to handle video capture from the back of a ball-room when the dynamics went from announcer [barely audible] to a Taiko drum demonstration... That was nasty to work with as I had to apply gain envelopes to transition between the segments).
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Baron Wulfraed
IISS Elusive Unicorn (detached)

Superscope PSD-300; BOSS BR-600, Zoom HD16cd, Zoom R16, BOSS BR-800, Zoom H2n
Now to (re)learn to play an instrument

Lanikai S-C, SMC-E; GoldTone Banjo-Uke; Flatiron 1C, A5; Big Muddy M1-W; Ovation MM68AX, CSE-44; Orpheus Valley Fiesta FS; Taylor NS-72ce, T5-S1; Musima (4st, 20 fret, tenor-tuned) banjo; bongos, dumbeks, bodhrans, hand drum, tambourine; recorder: soprano, alto, tenor; Cedar Flute (5 sizes); Pennywhistle (3 keys); Casio keyboards

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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by still_fiddlin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:22 pm

Yeah, well those broadcast standards are kind of irrelevant in today's world of digital music. Even some CDs are mastered up to -10dB LUFS, or higher (just checked a song on Larkin Poe's Peach CD: -7.5dB!). Pity the mastering engineer that's trying to deliver for multiple formats. I was referring to the "streaming standard" (using the term loosely).

Mastering has always had a concept of getting an album to a consistent loudness. We now have a way to specify and measure, though we can ignore it, of course! Putting a digital file onto a CD that has peaks (or reconstructed ones - i.e., the top of an analog wave form that gets transformed from the digital bits) above 0dB is pretty much a no-no, though, no matter what loudness is measured.
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by still_fiddlin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:29 pm

Wulfraed wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:22 am
...
I'd also experiment with different placement of the recorder. The hint of bass rumble might be from being too close to the guitar body, and getting close-mic bass enhancement (and I'll reiterate, if monitoring with small headphones/ear-buds, they are likely attenuating the bass -- try with full around/over-ear studio headphones). I seem to recall suggestions to place microphones near the 12-fret, and then aim toward the sound-hole, rather than directly in front of it.
...
I was hearing some of that, too. Maybe the Zoom was sitting on a hard table or something like a music stand. In a pinch, I used to put my H2 in a thick foam "koozie" if I had to set it on a table.

P.S. I did put a HPF on the file(s) that I output, so I think it's a little less.
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by guitarman91 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:13 pm

The Zoom was sitting on my music stand for this recording I think. I tried putting it many other places like on a tripod, a table and on the carpet floor and it still sounded terrible on the computer.

still_fiddlin, the files you posted still sound terrible. It still sounds like a cannon is being fired on each downbeat when the bass is played. the overall sound too is also very poor compared to what actually comes out of the device when I plug in earphones or speakers. I've tried many takes with different gain settings but maybe I can experiment more...

Tried VLC media player and basically no difference. Still sounds bad.

I've tried endlessly editing my recordings in audacity... High pass filter makes it a bit better but it's still totally different than what plays off the device.
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Re: terrible sound after transferring to computer

Post by still_fiddlin » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:10 pm

guitarman91 wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:13 pm
...
still_fiddlin, the files you posted still sound terrible. It still sounds like a cannon is being fired on each downbeat when the bass is played. the overall sound too is also very poor compared to what actually comes out of the device when I plug in earphones or speakers. I've tried many takes with different gain settings but maybe I can experiment more...

Tried VLC media player and basically no difference. Still sounds bad.

I've tried endlessly editing my recordings in audacity... High pass filter makes it a bit better but it's still totally different than what plays off the device.
There's something else going on with a part of your setup is all I can say. (It has nothing to do with the Zoom, since the files I created have been processed through Logic Pro X.) I've played all the files on the cheap soundbar/sub in the family room and my monitors and they don't exhibit the behavior you describe, as well as through the MacBook's iTunes and a set of decent cans.

There is definitely a big hump in the bottom of that EQ so if there's any EQ going on in your audio chain (that boosts the bass), which it sounds like there must be if it doesn't have this problem playing from the Zoom itself, you should try to dig down and see where that's happening.

I chopped a few more dB off the bottom, here, but it does seem resistant to really tamping down that LF energy.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3i8uzhxrmnofa ... 2.wav?dl=0

P.S. Try re-recording with the record level reduced, recording at 24-bit, and move the H2n so it's away from the guitar at least a foot at the 12th fret, angled [only] slightly toward the soundhole, as suggested. You'll get more string noise, but controlling that bottom woofiness is hard to do without a lot of experimentation when working with a fixed XY pair like that.
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