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H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:03 pm
by Heinz
Hi,
if I move a Wav-file from the SD-card to the computer, edit it there with my DAW Adobe Audition or Audacity - for example, I'll shorten the applause - and then copy it back to the SD-card. After putting the card into my H4n Pro, I get the message "invalid file".
How can I correctly copy an edited file to my Zoom?

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:18 am
by Wulfraed
Is the output file in the exact same format? mono vs stereo, bit-depth, sample-rate, and with a name compatible with the mode being used on the H4nPro (multi-track vs regular stereo, etc.). Is it in the same /location/ on the SD card?

Did you select/assign the file for playback? (It is hypothetical that the unit has an internal pointer that is still looking into the previous version of the file).

Have you experimented with just doing the bi-directional copying WITHOUT EDITING to see if there is some problem with that process.

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:16 pm
by Heinz
The edited files are in the same folder and same format (48000 Hz, 24 bit, stereo) and with the original name on the SD card.
A bi-directional copying WITHOUT EDITING works fine, even when copying to another folder and even if I rename them to what I want, for example >test.wav<.
It makes no difference if I copy the files on the SD card using a cardreader or directly to the unit in storage mode.
Now I tried to copy files from my old H1 to the H4n Pro - no problem, even if I edit them.
Where is my fault?

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:54 am
by sciurius
Editors sometimes add (or remove) segments of optional information to/from the WAV. I'm interested in examining a pre-edit and post-edit WAV.
PM me if you want me to do that.

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:13 am
by Heinz
I think you are right, sciurius. Now I've tried a lot of things. All files from the H4n Pro and edited with Adobe Audition show the invalid file message. The same files edited with Audacity work fine. All files from my old H1 work fine in H4n Pro editet with Audition and Audacity.
Only H4n Pro edited with Audition doesn't work in this unit.
If you or another user want to test with these short files, you can download them here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AoSTFwDwpGXWj_gDGSO ... A?e=PlndaZ

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:01 pm
by sciurius
Sorry, cannot acess these without OneDrive account.

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:28 pm
by Heinz
Sorry, I don't know, why you need an account to open my files. Normally no one needs it for my files.
Please try it with dropbox. Hope, you don't need an account too.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dvfwipddadiz ... dlsta?dl=0

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:49 am
by sciurius

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:48 am
by Heinz
This file works. I copied it to the H4n Pro and it plays correctly.

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:24 am
by sciurius
Okay, then the culprit is Adobe Audition, that aligns the WAV chunks at word boundaries (as it should) but does not incorporate this in the length information of the chunk. In this particular case there was a "bext" chunk of 655 bytes, aligned to 656 bytes, with length information saying 655 bytes. I merely patched the length info to be 656 and all is fine.

I cannot really comment on whether Adobe Audition is in error, or that the WAV standard is flakey and most tools (silently) align chunk boundaries. But it seems that the H4n does not, causing this file to fail. Note that other Adobe Audition modified files may succeed, if none of the chunks are odd-sized.

I have a gig now, I'll try tomorrow what the H2n and R24 does with your file.

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:33 pm
by Wulfraed
sciurius wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:24 am
Okay, then the culprit is Adobe Audition, that aligns the WAV chunks at word boundaries (as it should) but does not incorporate this in the length information of the chunk. In this particular case there was a "bext" chunk of 655 bytes, aligned to 656 bytes, with length information saying 655 bytes. I merely patched the length info to be 656 and all is fine.
Can't speak for the BEXT chunk, but http://www-mmsp.ece.mcgill.ca/Documents ... /WAVE.html indicates that the length (chunk size) does NOT include any required padding byte for the sample data
data Chunk

The data chunk contains the sampled data.
Field Length Contents
ckID 4 Chunk ID: "data"
cksize 4 Chunk size: n
sampled data n Samples
pad byte 0 or 1 Padding byte if n is odd
BEXT is, I believe, part of the "broadcast WAVE format"
http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3285.pdf
(Hmmm, I only count 583 bytes for the BEXT data. AH, wait.. CodingHistory is variable length/unspecified, using <cr><lf> separators) Don't see anything that requires padding to be provided and counted.

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:18 pm
by Heinz
I have tried it now with MP3 files. They don't cause any problem. I can edit them with Audition and then play them correctly with my H4n Pro.
I would like to emphasize that copying to my zoom is not very important for me. I was just surprised that it makes problems and I assumed that I was doing something wrong.

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:32 am
by sciurius
Tested with files EDIT.WAV (H4n Pro edited Audition 190705-002.wav) and FIXED.WAV (H4n Pro fixed Audition 190705-002.wav).
The Zoom H2n shows both files, but skips EDIT.WAV when I try to play it. FIXED.WAV plays fine. EDIT.WAV also cannot be normalized, converted, etc.
The Zoom R24 accepts both files without problem.

So it seems the H4n behaves like the H2n, and the R24 is more flexible in what it accepts.
According to the specs I get the idea that for WAV files chunk lengths are actual and need not include padding, so this would be a bug in the H2n/H4n (and probably others).

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:17 am
by Heinz
Thank you for testing and for the explanation. Maybe in a further firmware update this issue will be fixed.

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:20 pm
by sciurius
I've filed an issue at Zoom. Don't hold your breath.

Re: H4n Pro - copy a file to the Zoom

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:43 am
by sciurius
I received a disappointing reply from Zoom:
The H2n is not designed to play back files that were not recorded on the device, but the R24 is designed with this function.
I assume this applies to the H4n as well.

So, no firmware updates...