Is there an easier way to edit a rhythm song?

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guitarded_1
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Is there an easier way to edit a rhythm song?

Post by guitarded_1 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:30 pm

I have been using the FAST method to arrange patterns into full songs. It's pretty intuitive, but unless I am missing something, you have to play through the whole damn thing to hear any changes that have been made.

I started messing with Armin's pattern editor, and from what I can tell, it's just for editing patterns and not arranging patterns into full songs. I would love to be able to edit *and* arrange patterns on my computer, specify how many measures of each pattern, etc...without having to do mathematical equations and listen to the whole thing through every time I make changes.

Someone help a brotha out.
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Henky
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Post by Henky » Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:09 am

You obviously did not try Armin’s “song editor”, it let’s you visually arrange your patterns without having to do mathematical calculations.
The only downside is that you can’t “play” your song on the computer, you have to copy it to the zoom every time you want to listen to the whole thing after making changes.
I sure hope, one day, Armin will build this feature for his song editor…
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guitarded_1
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Post by guitarded_1 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:13 am

Henky wrote:You obviously did not try Armin’s “song editor”, it let’s you visually arrange your patterns without having to do mathematical calculations.
The only downside is that you can’t “play” your song on the computer, you have to copy it to the zoom every time you want to listen to the whole thing after making changes.
I sure hope, one day, Armin will build this feature for his song editor…
Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, that option isn't much better than just working on the Zoom. Oh well.
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Post by Henky » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:19 am

There is still one other alternative that I have been using a lot lately and that is to use the SMF player.
You can use any midi software sequencer that can create SMF files (Standard Midi Files format 0) and load it in the zoom.
This way you skip the entire pattern system and you can load a complete song in the zoom.

You could start by using Cubase LE and while working on your PC use a midi interface and drive the drum and bass sounds in the zoom through the midi in.
This way you will allways hear the actual sounds from the zoom while editing/creating your song on the PC.
When you're finished, save your sequence as a SMF file, copy it to the zoom and you are ready to go and record your other tracks.
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Post by zoomermo » Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:28 pm

guitarded_1 -

You can use my song editor at:

http://www.geocities.com/musicians_solutions/

It will not only play the the midi rhythm but also your audio files at the same time so you can really hear how your patterns/song changes fit your audio.

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guitarded_1
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Post by guitarded_1 » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:29 pm

zoomermo wrote:guitarded_1 -

You can use my song editor at:

http://www.geocities.com/musicians_solutions/

It will not only play the the midi rhythm but also your audio files at the same time so you can really hear how your patterns/song changes fit your audio.

ZoomerMO
Musicians Solutions, LLC
Thanks for the info. I just got done downloading the demo version, and within 5 minutes, I had pretty much had it figured out. It's a very neat tool, and I love the fact that you can double click on an event within the song editor and bring up the pattern editor to fine tune a drum part. I think that will definitely be ordering the song and drum editor combination. Thanks!
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Post by Armin » Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:11 pm

guitarded_1 wrote:
Henky wrote:You obviously did not try Armin’s “song editor”, it let’s you visually arrange your patterns without having to do mathematical calculations.
The only downside is that you can’t “play” your song on the computer, you have to copy it to the zoom every time you want to listen to the whole thing after making changes.
I sure hope, one day, Armin will build this feature for his song editor…
Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, that option isn't much better than just working on the Zoom. Oh well.

Since the Zoom HD16/HD8 can include any kind of user samples - and will sound very different from your soundcards Midi player - I feel it's not a great option to have playback in the song editor.

The HD16/HD18 itself can be used as a 'soundcard' and be triggered by the Patterneditors.
Last edited by Armin on Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Henky » Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:17 pm

Armin wrote:Since the Zoom HD16/HD8 can include any kind of user samples - and will sound very different from your soundcards Midi player - I feel it's not a great option to have playback in the song editor.

The HD16/HD18 itself can be used as a 'soundcard' and be triggered by the Pattern- and Songeditors.
Hi Armin,
I just don't understand what you're saying here...
On the one hand the HD can be triggered by the Pattern AND Songeditor (like the way I stated above by driving the sounds through a midi interface) but on the other hand your songeditor can not play the song and you feel it's not a great option.
So what do you mean then that your songeditor can trigger the HD as a soundcard?

I still think that when you can play the whole song and use the midi out on your PC to "trigger" the sounds in the HD, the whole process of creating a song would be much more efficient, and you won't be using your soundcards Midi player that way.
What you are saying about playback in the songeditor not being a great option because it will sound very different from your soundcards Midi player could also be said for the pattern editor and there's a play option there...
While creating a song you just want to know sometimes how curtain patterns sound when played in sequence and that's not possible with your songeditor.

Don't get me wrong I love your editors but the lack of a playback option in the song editor drives me (and evidently others like guitarded_1) to look for other alternatives like the SMF method I described or other editors that may come around...
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Post by Armin » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:11 pm

Yes, I should be Patterneditor (not songeditor) for Midi playback :oops: (I edited it).
Both Pattern- and Songeditors can be used to change the internal HD .seq file (via USB - so no need to copy the file to the PC first) - and then listen to the whole song of the HD.

I don't know how you use the HD16 - I have used the PS02, PS04, MRS and now the HD16 like this:

Created some pattern with the Patternedior - offline on the PC (Playback via Midi soundcard).
By modifying stock pattern, creating my own ones and importing Midi files (found in the web) into the Patterneditor.

This is my pool of patterns I use.

When I lay down a song did I either use the SongEditor - in case I know exactly what cord progressions I like - or most of the time did I only use ONE pattern as guide rhythm (since I play the bass most of the time myself).

Then AFTER I have done all the audio tracks - did I modify the patterns / include fills ... most of the time with the Zoom FAST feature.

I do not use the song editor this much (that was the reason why I did not create one for the PS04/MRS first).

When Zoom asked me to bundle a PatternEditor for the HD series did they ask for a SongEditor too - so I created one and modifier it for use of the PS04 and MRS too.

To fine tune the Song can you use the SongEditor and listen to the HD itself - being able to play the actual used samples, audio tracks, trigger external Midi stuff ...
or export the whole thing and do the final stuff in Cubase.

How is your workflow ?
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Post by Henky » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:17 pm

Thanks Armin for your answer.
Let me start by telling you that all of my music is “planned”, I don’t ever improvise.
I want to have every note like I hear it in my head, that’s why I never use a standard pattern but always start from scratch.
Furthermore I started out as a drummer in the old days, so I pretty much know how drum parts can be translated to patterns.

So here is my workflow:
1) The song starts while “hearing” music in my head. (Yeah I know I’m probably crazy)
2) I write down the parts of the song like chorus, bridge solo etc.
3) I figure out the drum part and how I could slice it up into patterns.
4) I create those patterns with your pattern editor
5) I paste all the patterns together with your song editor
6) I copy the .seq to the HD
7) I record all the audio tracks on the zoom etc etc

I always edit the .seq file which is on my PC and your editors are always open and loaded with the .seq file for the song I’m working on while I do audio recordings on the zoom.
This way I can make subtle changes along the way without having to change to mass storage mode all the time and when I’m happy with the drum part I copy the .seq file ones more.

As you can see the song editor is for me much more a creating tool then an editing tool.
In my workflow it’s where a song first starts to take shape by putting separate patterns together and therefore I have the urge to listen to it to determine if I got everything just right.
When you would edit the .seq file on the zoom directly via USB you still can’t listen to it right away, you first have to terminate the mass storage mode.
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Post by Lee » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:33 pm

Henky wrote:Thanks Armin for your answer.
Let me start by telling you that all of my music is “planned”, I don’t ever improvise.
I want to have every note like I hear it in my head, that’s why I never use a standard pattern but always start from scratch.
Furthermore I started out as a drummer in the old days, so I pretty much know how drum parts can be translated to patterns.

So here is my workflow:
1) The song starts while “hearing” music in my head. (Yeah I know I’m probably crazy)
2) I write down the parts of the song like chorus, bridge solo etc.
3) I figure out the drum part and how I could slice it up into patterns.
4) I create those patterns with your pattern editor
5) I paste all the patterns together with your song editor
6) I copy the .seq to the HD
7) I record all the audio tracks on the zoom etc etc

I always edit the .seq file which is on my PC and your editors are always open and loaded with the .seq file for the song I’m working on while I do audio recordings on the zoom.
This way I can make subtle changes along the way without having to change to mass storage mode all the time and when I’m happy with the drum part I copy the .seq file ones more.

As you can see the song editor is for me much more a creating tool then an editing tool.
In my workflow it’s where a song first starts to take shape by putting separate patterns together and therefore I have the urge to listen to it to determine if I got everything just right.
When you would edit the .seq file on the zoom directly via USB you still can’t listen to it right away, you first have to terminate the mass storage mode.
Henky, we have very similar approaches. I was never officially a "drummer", but I can play and would always annoy my drummers (being a control freak), "why not play it like this.." :lol:

I do allow room for guitar-based improvising against a fixed progression, but the song is all but 100% done before I press record. The challenge is making it sound like what you hear... that's how I measure success/failure for the stuff I do.

I've yet to try Armin's editors, but you peaked my interest, and I like the fact that you describe the hearing music in your head as the first step. It's hard for me to understand why anyone would want to write music any other way! :yes: ...to each there own though. :^:
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