R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

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aviuncyk
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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by aviuncyk » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:25 pm

I do music as an hobby and did not touch the Zoom for over a year. However, after reading your notes below, and ONLY after that I finally understood the way the effects work. From the manual which I read again and again, I could not get it.

Many Thanks

A Uncyk

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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by selbalicious » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:45 pm

Yay! Really glad it helped!
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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by jazzweasel » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:41 am

First I have to profess my ignorance (newbie) and apologize if what I'm asking was answered somewhere here.

Is there a link that still exists to get the diagram of how the insert effects works?

I'm trying to bounce a track thru an effect but having problems. The first is I can't get the insert effect to go "on". I suspect this is because I recorded dry rather than wet - could that be the issue? Is there anyway to change that - copy a dry track to a wet track, or do I have to re-record as a wet track?

Second I'm a visual learner, so can anyone recommend a tutorial on line (Youtube, etc) that they found helpful in the past for any topic on the R16

Thanks in Advance
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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by Wulfraed » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:48 pm

jazzweasel wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:41 am
Is there a link that still exists to get the diagram of how the insert effects works?
Beyond the user manual?
I'm trying to bounce a track thru an effect but having problems. The first is I can't get the insert effect to go "on". I suspect this is because I recorded dry rather than wet - could that be the issue? Is there anyway to change that - copy a dry track to a wet track, or do I have to re-record as a wet track?
Manual page 47 -- take note of the Insert Effect locations. Make sure the effect is set to TRACK, AND is active for the SOURCE track you are bouncing.
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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by selbalicious » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:10 pm

Hey folks. I think this person is the same one (or similar) who asked about pushing individual tracks through the Send/Return effects and then into a DAW (such as Reaper).

Here is the question and my answer below it (and who knows...there MAY be other ways around this that I don't know about...it's been awhile since I had my claws around my R16(s)).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Kevin,
First of all, a huge thank you to you. My musical partner got an R16
earlier this year and though I can't say we've exactly mastered the beast
with all it's idiosyncrasies yet, we'd still be struggling with the basics
without your generous devotion to the cause. Thank you for all your time
and help on this forum.

I've also enjoyed your musings, adventures and enthusiasms on your own
musical career, partly through your website.

My question is this - Is there a way of importing all tracks from a project
to a DAW like Reaper or Audacity to do a remix while keeping the effects,
(send/return, insert) that were applied in the R16? Or would the only way
be to record wet? (As far as I understand one can't record send/return wet,
only insert, or insert and bounce).

Thanks in advance if you find the time to reply to this,

-------------------------------------------------------------------

My answer:

That is a GREAT question...and certainly something that I thought about (very slightly) whilst putting together all those tutorial posts and such.

I think that I never actually believed someone would want to "imprint" the send/return effects onto the actual .wav files themselves (sitting behind tracks 1-8 or whatever).

When the R16 is acting in "DAW" mode, there is no concept of opening a "Project" local on the SD card and playing that project THROUGH the USB cable into the computer. The R16 simply becomes an audio interface allowing signal to come through the Inputs, down the USB wire to the computer where it gets laid down as a .wav's on various tracks and all that. SO...there really is no way to play an R16 Project and have the tracks send their audio through the USB to the DAW (while playing through the Send/Return effects).
If my recollection is correct, the Dry/Wet recording setting is only for the Insert effect. In order to "print" the Send/Return effects, I'm afraid the only way to do it is INTERNALLY to the R16.

A few non-standard methods that would "get the job done".

1. Bounce each track THROUGH the Send/Return effects to their own new tracks (heck...if you only had 8 tracks you could literally bounce every track to its corresponding 9-16 tracks to make things easy).
2. Here's an interesting twist: So...you connect the R16 to your computer in some manner that is analog. Either the Main Outs or Phone Outs on the R16 to some type of computer interface OR to the simple Line Input on the computer would work. Then you would have to record each track individually (while muting the other 7) and create new tracks in the DAW to represent the tracks on the R16. The only trouble is there is no way to synchronize the starting of the recording in the DAW with pushing Play on the R16 and therefore your tracks would NOT line up easily. Probably not the best approach. But it IS an approach.
3. Since it appears that you really like the internal send/return effects (you have some reason you want them "printed" to the .wav), you could simply do all your mixing on the R16 and mix together all the tracks to a Master stereo .wav file and be done. But I understand...you really would rather work with them in a DAW. In that case, the only option I see if bullet 1 above.

Now...all that said...I'm scratching my head wondering why you reaaaaaaaaaally want those internal Send/Return effects to be "printed" (also sometimes referred to as "burned-in") to the .wavs. The R16 is actually quite an old machine in Internet time. Since then, all the various DAWs (including Reaper) have RADICALLY leapfrogged any and all of the technology/software used in the R16 for its internal effects. Another way of saying this: the send/return effects on the R16 are "good" and can certainly be "good enough" in many situations, but they aren't even CLOSE to the quality of effects you get in nearly every DAW on the planet. I would probably take a good hard look at why exactly I really want those older, less clean, less technologically advanced effects printed onto my .wav files. But that's just me!

K
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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by sciurius » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:17 am

There's one thing that puzzles me.

I can select a global reverb effect (e.g. bright hall) and then for each track set the amount of this effect to be applied using EQ -> REV SEND.
But when I have a project that is not 44.1kHz, I cannot select effects yet still I can use REV SEND to obtain reverb. Is this some kind of default effect that is available regardless of other settings?
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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by Wulfraed » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:55 pm

sciurius wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:17 am
I can select a global reverb effect (e.g. bright hall) and then for each track set the amount of this effect to be applied using EQ -> REV SEND.
But when I have a project that is not 44.1kHz, I cannot select effects yet still I can use REV SEND to obtain reverb. Is this some kind of default effect that is available regardless of other settings?
Pardon? R-16 "Project"s are always 44.1kHz, the only option is 16 or 24 bit.

The Audio Interface mode allows for different sample rates (but appears fixed at 24-bit based up manual page 95), but does not constitute a "project".

Send/Return effects are a different DSP module from the insert effects processing. For one thing, S/R doesn't normally record anywhere -- it just has to apply a signal reduction per the send-level, average the resulting tracks into one signal (mono or stereo), and just process that signal and merge the result into the output stream. If in AI mode, I suspect any send/return feed is only being used for the monitor blend, and doesn't get fed into the interface stream itself.
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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by sciurius » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:37 am

I should have mentioned I have an R24, which allows 48 kHz audio projects. And with 48 kHz, insert effects are not available.

According to the pictures in the tutorials, user selectable insert effects are used for reverb and chorus. For the R16 this is the whole story. I was just wondering how the resident reverb and chorus work on the R24 with 48 kHz.
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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by Wulfraed » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:51 am

The send/return effects -- using the track parameter send-level (R24 page 41: REV SEND and CHO SEND) -- are a separate feature from insert effects (just as with the R16). While I've not opened a unit up to see if dedicated chips, send/return are conceptually a different DSP unit.

Not having an R24, I can't test -- the R24 manual doesn't make things too obvious; page 90 seems to be the only mention that 48kHz doesn't support effects, but is not clear if that is both insert and send/return, or just insert effects (one would think something that significant would be a note in the chapter covering effects, not the utilities area).

In either case -- 48kHz may just be too fast to allow the DSP processor to appy effects... OR Zoom decided anyone using 48kHz is aiming at audio for video, and hence would not be doing mix-down on the unit itself; most of the better video editors include fairly full featured DAW capability (Vegas started life as an audio editor to which video editing was added, now it is a video editor with a very capable audio edit).
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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by sciurius » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:47 am

Wulfraed wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:51 am
The send/return effects -- using the track parameter send-level (R24 page 41: REV SEND and CHO SEND) -- are a separate feature from insert effects (just as with the R16).
That's one of the confusing parts, since the pictures from the tutorial explicitly name insert effects to be used for send/return as well.
Not having an R24, I can't test -- the R24 manual doesn't make things too obvious; page 90 seems to be the only mention that 48kHz doesn't support effects, but is not clear if that is both insert and send/return, or just insert effects
Just the insert effects. Send/return effects reverb and chorus are still available.
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Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by Wulfraed » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:17 am

sciurius wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:47 am
Wulfraed wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:51 am
The send/return effects -- using the track parameter send-level (R24 page 41: REV SEND and CHO SEND) -- are a separate feature from insert effects (just as with the R16).
That's one of the confusing parts, since the pictures from the tutorial explicitly name insert effects to be used for send/return as well.
Likely a mis-understanding since the Mod/Delay stage of (Clean/Crunch, Distortion, Sim, Bass, Mic, Stereo) insert effects supports a "type" setting that includes "chorus" or "delay" (Dual Mic has a Delay-only stage), and there is also a Reverb stage (missing from Bass, Mic, Dual Mic, Stereo).

The send/return modules are documented on page 125, whereas the insert effect Mod/Delay is page 118 (except for Stereo, which has different options, page 123, and Dual Mic Delay page 121) and Reverb on page 119.
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