Page 2 of 6

Re: HD16

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:23 am
by gtaus
I am still hoping that someone will find a way to swap out the old IDE HDD with an adapter and memory cards. Or even an adapter and SATA HDD drives. But I'm thinking that the firmware of the HD16 may place limits on the HDD size that it will recognize. I doubt that Zoom has any financial interest to keep the HD16 alive so I don't expect them to put any time or energy into firmware upgrades and hardware mods.

I don't know if any one format of memory card is better than another. It seems that CF cards were more popular about 5 years ago, but today I see lots more SDHC and mini SD cards. The cards just seem to get smaller in size, larger in capacity, and cheaper to buy. That's all good for us. I have a small collection of memory cards that I can't use in anything anymore. At the time, I paid a fortune for them. Oh yeah, anyone interested in 8-track tapes these days???? I personally have gone completely digital in my music, have not bought or burned a CD in about 5 years. Given the low price of external HDDs, I have just dumped my files on external USB drives because it has been taking too long to burn the files to backup DVD data discs. So I really don't know if any one format of memory card is better than another. It's more of market share, price, and availability, I think.

It's too bad that a great machine like the HD16 did not have a longer support life. I'm all for advancements in tech gear. But it's a shame that some great music gear gets pushed aside and gets forgotten. At least we know that we can swap out another 80GB IDE HDD on our HD16 if it crashes thanks to you guys. But, it will not be long before the 80GB drives will be too hard to find. They stopped making those drives a number of years ago and you can only find used/pulls HDDs for sale. I guess if you want to use the HD16 for years to come, you better get the drives now, format them to make sure they work, and then put them on the shelf as a backup. Having said that, by the time my HD16 dies, you might be able to buy a $10 app for your iTech whatever that allows us to record more than 8 live channels that we get our current recorders. I suppose showing up to a gig 10 years from now with our HD16 would be like someone showing up to a house party with a case full of 8 track tapes. :metal:

Re: HD16

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:32 am
by Badnob
Hi gates,

Just got a long post in 1 min before you we must have been writing them at the same time. My best guess is that the issue is with partition size (or the size of the drive). I'll do a bit of experimenting to see if I can prove this one way or the other. Please check the post before yours for more detail.

As far as support for the HD's is concerned, I guess it's down to forums like this!

Badnob

Re: HD16

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:43 am
by Badnob
Hi

Would there be any way to change the title of this thread from HD16 to something more appropriate like HD8/16 hard drive upgrade and modification? It'd help when browsing the forum.

Thanks.

Badnob.

Re: HD16

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:45 am
by gtrdrt
Badnob wrote:Hi

@ gtrdrt

When you say it didn't work, how far did it get?

Did you try and run the software restore and if so, did it give you any error messages?

Maybe it didn't like the size difference, I'm thinking that the restore process may try and make an 80GB partition and if there isn't enough space on the drive then it can't continue. In theory, the type of drive doesn't matter as it is being presented to the zoom's IDE controller as an ATA device wether it is a CF, IDE, SSD etc.

I have a 40gb IDE drive I could give it a go with to check.

Ideally it would be nice to get an SSD in mine, for silent operation, so if we can find out as much as possible about the way the HD's handle drives then it would be a good thing.

It would also be worth sticking the original zoom drive into a pc as I reckon it is a FAT partition (as windows can see it via USB) so it may be possible to clone the original drive (with all zoom firmware and file structure) onto a larger drive and increase the partition size whilst keeping all files on there.

Any thoughts?

Badnob.
Yes, I ran the recovery software from the CD. I had done this before with the replacement hard drive I installed, so I pretty much knew what to expect, but it ran into an error just before it would have offered me the option to choose "RECOVER."

I wonder if one could clone the original drive onto a smaller drive (such as the IDE to CF adapter with an 8gig card in it) and decrease the partition size whilst keeping all the files on there. It couldn't hurt to try, I guess. What's the latest on free cloning software?

Re: HD16

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:31 am
by gtrdrt
gtrdrt wrote:
Badnob wrote:Hi

@ gtrdrt

When you say it didn't work, how far did it get?

Did you try and run the software restore and if so, did it give you any error messages?

Maybe it didn't like the size difference, I'm thinking that the restore process may try and make an 80GB partition and if there isn't enough space on the drive then it can't continue. In theory, the type of drive doesn't matter as it is being presented to the zoom's IDE controller as an ATA device wether it is a CF, IDE, SSD etc.

I have a 40gb IDE drive I could give it a go with to check.

Ideally it would be nice to get an SSD in mine, for silent operation, so if we can find out as much as possible about the way the HD's handle drives then it would be a good thing.

It would also be worth sticking the original zoom drive into a pc as I reckon it is a FAT partition (as windows can see it via USB) so it may be possible to clone the original drive (with all zoom firmware and file structure) onto a larger drive and increase the partition size whilst keeping all files on there.

Any thoughts?

Badnob.
Yes, I ran the recovery software from the CD. I had done this before with the replacement hard drive I installed, so I pretty much knew what to expect, but it ran into an error just before it would have offered me the option to choose "RECOVER."

I wonder if one could clone the original drive onto a smaller drive (such as the IDE to CF adapter with an 8gig card in it) and decrease the partition size whilst keeping all the files on there. It couldn't hurt to try, I guess. What's the latest on free cloning software?
Well, I tried it. I wasn't able to get it to work. I used Easeus Partition Master. It was free, pretty easy to use, and I was able to get Easeus to do what I wanted it to do, but the HD16 still doesn't like my IDE to CF adapter. What I ended up trying was to make the HD_USR partition on the 80gig hard drive small enough to be able to clone it to and fit it on the CF card. It all looked real good when Easeus was finished, but I guess looking good is just not good enough. Ah well.

Re: HD16

Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 11:31 pm
by Dirkimus Max
Greetings!
I just bought an HD16 off Ebay, and am incredibly new to digital recording. Reading about the HD16, though made me just HAVE to have one :D . The seller said I would get it just as he did out of the box, but he didn't include the software or Recovery Disks. He stopped corresponding with me when I asked him for them. :)

I'm not a musician but I enjoy doing the fake book thing with keyboards, and have a couple rack mount Emu synthesizers that are loads of fun. The HD16 seems to be working fine; first out of the box, I recorded a couple singing rounds with a cheap-junk microphone, just to play with it; what fun! My PC recognizes the drive, too.

I noticed discussion here about the recovery disk, and was wondering if I too could download a copy from somewhere?

Also, I know I'm probably out of luck with the Cubase LE as well, but I noticed some discussion about Cuckos Reaper; should I pass on buying Cubase and and learn Reaper instead? Am I missing out on the drum pattern creator on the recovery disk, or will Reaper do that for me as well?

Thanks in advance!

D Max

Re: HD16

Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 9:53 am
by gtaus
Dirkimus Max wrote:...I noticed discussion here about the recovery disk, and was wondering if I too could download a copy from somewhere?...
Welcome to the forum, D Max. I think someone else mentioned missing the recovery disc and they did get a copy of the software. Was it from Zoom support? Can't remember. Perhaps you could do a search on the forum and find the discussion.
Dirkimus Max wrote:...Also, I know I'm probably out of luck with the Cubase LE as well, but I noticed some discussion about Cuckos Reaper; should I pass on buying Cubase and and learn Reaper instead?...
If I had to start all over again, I'd probably not use Cubase LE4 and instead use either Audacity or Reaper. Audacity is free, Reaper requests you register their software for a modest price. Both of those programs seem to have more active user bases than Cubase LE4 - which has already been replaced by Cubase LE5. Lots of guys here think Reaper is the way to go. So check out their comments. I kind of went the Cubase LE4 route and then upgraded to Cubase 5. But that was a lot of $$$ out of my pocket and I probably would not make the same decision today. Almost everything I want to do with my DAW could be accomplished in either Audacity or Reaper, and I could have saved lots of money. At the time, I did not know about either Audacity or Reaper. So, if you never get Cubase LE4, don't feel you lost out on something.
Dirkimus Max wrote:...Am I missing out on the drum pattern creator on the recovery disk, or will Reaper do that for me as well?...
The freebie drum and bass program was a nice touch. It works fine, although it is the "lite" version of his commercial package. I thought I would be using that program a lot, but it turns out that I decided to just download midi files off the internet and have the HD16 play the drum and bass from those midi files. IIRC, the drums are on channel 10 and the bass is on channel 9 (but it's been a few years since I did that). Anyway, the software works fine. Also, the FAST system the HD16 uses might be all you need and that is in the firmware. Some guys only use the FAST programming for drums. I ended up getting EZDrummer (VST plugin for my DAW) for my drum tracks and never used the HD16 drums again. I do most of my work in my DAW (and the recorder only for recording tracks). But for standalone purposes on the HD16, I think the FAST programming is about as good as it gets for a drum machine.

My only complaint about the drum pattern creator software is that it requires you to use a computer with your HD16, and if you use your computer, you might as well go all the way with a good DAW and drum program. You can download and use Reaper for free, and I highly recommend the EZDrummer software - which I felt was worth the purchase price. But that was what I found I needed. You might find yourself with different needs. Anyway, try to get the software disc, try out the programs with the HD16, and see what works for you. Best wishes.

Re: HD16

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:04 pm
by rx1999
Hello,
I recently bought an HD16 and succesfully upgrade the hard drive to Solid State Drive (Kingston V100 64GB). I use ghost to clone the drives and a Rosewill sata to ide converter set as master and the cd-rom to slave. The trick is to reconfigure the ide cable where one end of the connector plugs into the mainboard of the HD16 and the next connector to the Rosewill sata to ide converter set as master and the other end to the cd-rom set as slave. I was also able to configure the SSD using the Utility CD as well. The SSD is mounted beneath the latch at the bottom easily accessible, also replace the cdrw with a black one.
Rx1999

Re: HD16

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:52 pm
by gtaus
That's some good info. I wonder if the 80GB HDD on the HD16 was the max limit, or if the 80 GB HDD was just what Zoom could afford to put into the HD16 at that time and sell it at their price point. I have some older, good conditioned IDE HDDs in the 120 GB and 200 GB size and I wonder if the HD16 would recognize the extra memory space above the first 80 GB? I don't plan on swapping out drives until my 80GB HDD bites the dust, but it would good to know if the larger IDE drives would work.

Re: HD16

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:23 pm
by Badnob
@rx1999 well done there, I knew it'd be possible and I was going to try it myself, even eyed up the same converter on eBay;) you should be able to plug any media in as long as the converter presents an IDE interface.

How quiet is it without the mechanical hard drive? Apart from the CD drive, does the zoom make any other noise?

Re: HD16

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:37 pm
by rx1999
Hello,
Sorry for the slow response, I was gathering more info regarding hard drive size limit.
@gtaus,
80GB doesn't seem to be the max limit, I restored the Image of the 80gb to a 500gb Seagate 2.5" drive and it booted fine. the 500gb drive was partitioned as such HD_FAC @2GB FAT(System Part) and the HD_USR @ 463GB FAT32 (User Part). However, the true test would be to Stuff over 80GB of data and see how it behaves. I guest that good new :D . But I prefer using the 64GB SSD.

@Badnob,
The HD16 is Super Quiet, no noise at all, only when I click to select a Track to Record you can hear a click :D . Even with the 500GB 2.5" drive it was still very quiet. As long as you don't use a 3.5" drive you should be Noise and Heat free. Also, I had the unit on all day and the was no heat dissipation at all from anywhere even by the power connector and the space behind the 8 Ins was cool.

Re: HD16

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:19 pm
by gtrdrt
rx1999 wrote:Hello,
I recently bought an HD16 and succesfully upgrade the hard drive to Solid State Drive (Kingston V100 64GB). I use ghost to clone the drives and a Rosewill sata to ide converter set as master and the cd-rom to slave. The trick is to reconfigure the ide cable where one end of the connector plugs into the mainboard of the HD16 and the next connector to the Rosewill sata to ide converter set as master and the other end to the cd-rom set as slave. I was also able to configure the SSD using the Utility CD as well. The SSD is mounted beneath the latch at the bottom easily accessible, also replace the cdrw with a black one.
Rx1999
I'm a little confused here. As I recall, the cd-rom is on its own cable, so why would you want to put it on a cable that also has the hard drive on it? What would happen if you didn't utilize the trick of reconfiguring the ide cable as you describe and simply replaced the old drive with the ssd/Rosewill-converter assembly instead?

Ok, go ahead and embarrass me with my own denseness or whatever... :)

Re: HD16

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:08 pm
by rx1999
A first, I was somewhat confused also until I took the cover off completely and had a closer look. Both the Hard drive and the CD-Rom share the same IDE port (Only one IDE port on the Mainboard) except that the cable configuration did not suite the Rosewill converter preventing the detection or rather confusion in identifying the drives which resulted in <System error> massage. Only at this point I realized that by reconfiguring the cabling as Standard IDE configuration would do the trick. All IDE port can host up to two drives only and the cable has 3 connectors one end goes to the mainboard the second connector often goes on the Hard Drive (Set As Master ID0) and the 3rd to the CD-Rom (Set As Slave ID1). Very rarely I see IDE devices connected in a "Y" configuration, which is the case in the HD16, if you look at the Hard Drive there is no jumper which indicates that the drive is set as Single or Master and CD-Rom set as Master, very unconventional for an IDE configuration but it worked ;) . However, by introducing a SATA hard drive changes the scenario completely, and only a converter which provides means to select the role of the device on the channel will work. Keep in mind, reason for the "Y" configuration is because of the location of the drives, and if you have to use the Standard IDE configuration would result in a very long IDE cable which would probably cause "Data lost", in fact I replaced the original 40 conductor cable with a much shorter 80 conductor.
Hope it all make sense and not even more confusing :) .

Re: HD16

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:53 pm
by gtrdrt
rx1999 wrote:A first, I was somewhat confused also until I took the cover off completely and had a closer look. Both the Hard drive and the CD-Rom share the same IDE port (Only one IDE port on the Mainboard) except that the cable configuration did not suite the Rosewill converter preventing the detection or rather confusion in identifying the drives which resulted in <System error> massage. Only at this point I realized that by reconfiguring the cabling as Standard IDE configuration would do the trick. All IDE port can host up to two drives only and the cable has 3 connectors one end goes to the mainboard the second connector often goes on the Hard Drive (Set As Master ID0) and the 3rd to the CD-Rom (Set As Slave ID1). Very rarely I see IDE devices connected in a "Y" configuration, which is the case in the HD16, if you look at the Hard Drive there is no jumper which indicates that the drive is set as Single or Master and CD-Rom set as Master, very unconventional for an IDE configuration but it worked ;) . However, by introducing a SATA hard drive changes the scenario completely, and only a converter which provides means to select the role of the device on the channel will work. Keep in mind, reason for the "Y" configuration is because of the location of the drives, and if you have to use the Standard IDE configuration would result in a very long IDE cable which would probably cause "Data lost", in fact I replaced the original 40 conductor cable with a much shorter 80 conductor.
Hope it all make sense and not even more confusing :) .
I'm getting closer, I think (hope). Are you saying that normally in the HD16 there is only one ide cable, that it's plugged into the only ide port, that it is a "Y" cable that connects to both the HD and the cd-rom, and that you replaced it with a standard 80 conductor cable that connects to your ssd/converter assembly as a master and the cd-rom as a slave?

I don't know if you read earlier in this thread where I tried without success to replace my hd with an ide to compact flash adapter, but it's sounding like what you've done may give some hope to that possibility again. I hope you don't mind going into more detail for me on this until I truly understand it...

Re: HD16

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:42 pm
by rx1999
Sure I don't mind getting into details.
Correct, there is only one IDE port and one IDE Cable in the HD16 configured in a "Y" configuration rather than conventional in line setup. By moving the SSD under the small opening at the bottom of the unit made it possible to use a shorter IDE cable configured as Standard IDE. The Rosewill converter can only work in a standard configuration because of the jumper on the board that is use to set the drive as either Master or Slave, remember we are trying to install a SATA Drive which does not support Master nor Slave, SATA devices works on individual port which does not support multiple devices like IDE does. If you decide to use a converter without a jumper you will get <System Error >. Now if you were to use a 2.5" IDE drive, all you need is a 40 pin to 44 pin converter and "Y" configuration should be no problem. However, my goal was to upgrade to an SSD drive because of the benefits such as : noise and heat free, reliability,easy access ETC.
I have no problem if you have more questions.

Re: HD16

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:08 pm
by gtrdrt
rx1999 wrote:Sure I don't mind getting into details.
Thanks.
rx1999 wrote:Correct, there is only one IDE port and one IDE Cable in the HD16 configured in a "Y" configuration rather than conventional in line setup. By moving the SSD under the small opening at the bottom of the unit made it possible to use a shorter IDE cable configured as Standard IDE.
Yes, I had that same flexibility with the ide to cf adapter I used.
rx1999 wrote:The Rosewill converter can only work in a standard configuration because of the jumper on the board that is use to set the drive as either Master or Slave, remember we are trying to install a SATA Drive which does not support Master nor Slave, SATA devices works on individual port which does not support multiple devices like IDE does. If you decide to use a converter without a jumper you will get <System Error >.
The ide to cf adapter I used has a jumper that selects between master/single and slave.
rx1999 wrote:Now if you were to use a 2.5" IDE drive, all you need is a 40 pin to 44 pin converter and "Y" configuration should be no problem. However, my goal was to upgrade to an SSD drive because of the benefits such as : noise and heat free, reliability,easy access ETC.
I have no problem if you have more questions.
I think I have enough info to try again. It might take me awhile to get to it, but I'll post back with results when I have them. Thanks again...

Re: HD16

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:42 pm
by rx1999
Great, glad I could help clear things up, remember, because of the active converter use the standard configuration
|======|====| <----"IDE cable"
1 2 3 <--- "Connectors"

1 connects to mainboard
2 To active CF adapter set as Master
3 CD-Rom as Slave
Please let us know and if you still need help please post.
BTW CF cards are not as reliable as Hard drive.