HD16

Discuss the Zoom HD and R series. Please don't "post and run". Participate in the discussion. Thanks.
Nisei
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Re: HD16

Post by Nisei » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:45 am

Think this worked. Kingwin arrived today and it's recovering from CD
Fingers crossed...
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Re: HD16

Post by Nisei » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:11 am

Recovery took very long (10 to 15 minutes?) but success!!!
Thanks for the tip about the Kingwin adapter rx1999

Final configuration:

Original IDE cable configuration (middle connector connected to mainboard). One side running from mainboard to the Kingwin adapter connected to an Icy Dock 2.5" to 3.5" converter (a case which holds the SSD and exactly matches the size and mounting points of a 3.5" HDD) and the other side running to the CD Recorder.
The SSD I used is a Crucial M4 128GB
Remaining space after recovery is 120488MB which is over 120GB! So it has formatted the drive to full capacity and I can use the extra 48GB from the SSD. Nice!

Costs:
Kingwin ADP-06 SATA to IDE Bridge Board $7 including shipping (eBay)
128GB SSD drive around $60
Icy Dock EZConvert SATA SSD & HDD Converter MB882SP-1S-2B around $20 (optional, I had a bunch lying around so it didn't cost me extra)

Well worth the money! The unit is completely silent now and I gained 48GB space.
A few minor drawbacks though:
Boot time (Scanning HDD...) has increased by around 50% because of the extra space. The SSD gives you no speed gain, probably because of the limitations of the IDE interface.
The HDD activity LED doesn't blink anymore. It does when accessing the CD drive so it's caused by the Kingwin adapter.
Last edited by Nisei on Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:16 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: HD16

Post by Jim_Fogle » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:22 pm

Thanks for taking the time to share your positive experience. It's posts like this that add resale value and longivity to the HD series.
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Re: HD16

Post by Nisei » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:46 pm

Thanks Jim.
I don't think many people read this anymore but I thought it could help someone who does still own one and wants to upgrade it.
I'm going to make another edit to the last post: there's no need to change the order in which the SSD and CD recorder are connected to the IDE cable at all with the Kingwin adapter.
I'm not sure why rx1999 posted this, nor why he didn't mention the Kingwin adapter in the first place.
When you have the Kingwin adapter it's simply a case of swapping the HD with the SSD and adapter, drop in the utility CD and do a restore. Can be done in 10 minutes.
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Re: HD16

Post by SpaceAceOne » Fri May 20, 2016 6:07 am

Maybe not many people but some still do read this...

Anyway I just tried the quick way without changing any cables or order on the IDE-bus ("When you have the Kingwin adapter it's simply a case of swapping the HD with the SSD and adapter, drop in the utility CD and do a restore. Can be done in 10 minutes.") but it just gives me an "InternalHDD Err" and the CD-Drive won't even boot the recovery-CD (it does with the original drive in place. So either the Kingwin is faulty or does not like the 120GB SSD I threw in.
I'll do some more tests with different disks / adapters...
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Re: HD16

Post by Jim_Fogle » Sat May 21, 2016 1:49 pm

Just a thought. Typically IDE data cables are ribbon cables with crimp-on female connectors. I've seen many of those cables become bad or intermmitant either from a connector working loose, insulation drying out and cracking or internal wiring having a stress break. When the ribbon cables are new, they are very flexible but as they age they loose much of that flexibility and don't react to movement very well. The point being I learned it is advisable to replace any ribbon cable that has lost it's flexibility.
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Re: HD16

Post by SpaceAceOne » Sun May 22, 2016 5:10 pm

Thanks, Jim, the cable however is fine, I tried three different ones anyway.
I also tried different callings, both the factory Y-configuration of the HD16 and the "classical" mainboard - master - slave order.
Ultra-ATA cables (80 wires / 40 pins) will not work with the unit as these cables have pin 20 blocked on the connectors and therefore can't be attached to the HD16 connector. (sidenote: I wonder how rx1999 has managed to do so...).

Maybe there are different hardware revisions of the HD16 around acting differently?

Anyway it looks like the Kingwin-adapter is a piece of junk and it even has no Master/Slave jumper and does not properly route the access signal to the LED.

Next to the Kingwin I have tried an adapter from Digitus and two more from Startech and Manhattan (all set to Master as the CD-RW drive in my HD16 was set to Slave).

While the Kingwin and Digitus both give me the "InternalHDD err" only both the Startech- and Manhattan Adapters brought me a step further:
When Startech or Manhattan adapter is used the HD16 says: "System File error" (which I believe is expected because there's nothing on the SSD yet).

So next I booted from the Recovery-CD, picked the Recover option but after a few seconds "Recover" the HD16 says "Factory recover Failed..." :cry:

I had a 120 GB PNY-SSD and a 120 GB SanDisk SSD to try.

Any opinions? Why should the HD16 be so picky about the disk? The adapter just tells it it's an IDE-drive and people had success with a 500GB drive.
I'm running out of options here but would really like to switch to an SSD... So your ideas are very welcome. :yes:
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Re: HD16

Post by Jim_Fogle » Mon May 23, 2016 11:26 am

Manufacturers typically design and test with specific hardware. I worked for a company that used a specific model of a Sony floppy disc drive. Turns out that model was replaced during the transition from 720k floppies to 1.2 meg floppies. Engineering had to design an adaptor so our equipment would work with either drive. The adaptor basically performed the same job as a firmware update. Seems so silly and near sighted now but the same type of thing happened to many manufacturers that decided to use off-the-shelf computer parts. I don't think many engineers realised how fast standards would evolve and change in the computer industry.

My company still uses eight bit Z80 microprocessors. The microprocessors are no longer made by Zilog and the clock speed has changed from 1Mhz to 4Mhz to 8Mhz over the years. Changes like that wreck havoc on poorly written software where the code measures time by the number of times a command is repeated. A 1 second delay becomes 1/2 a second then 1/4 a second.

Returning to the issue of the Kingston adaptor not working, if the adaptor you have has a different model number or revision level than the one that worked, something has been changed enough that what use to work in this application no longer works. Unfortunately that is not that unusual.
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Re: HD16

Post by SpaceAceOne » Mon May 23, 2016 12:07 pm

I know Jim, I've been in the IT-business for almost 30 years now and the devil's in the detail sometimes...

Anyway the culprit must be the adapter (likely) or the SSD (unlikely).
I just found an old (but brand-new) 160 GB IDE HDD (Samsung Spinpoint SP1604N) which I could successfully recover with the Recovery CD. Although that's not what I wanted, it showed at least that the cable is ok and the CD itself is working and the system can be recovered from it. Good.

Maybe these SATA-adapters do require an Ultra-ATA cable (80 wires / 40 pins) in combination with a SATA-drive, although they should be fully backward-compatible but who knows? Anyway those ATA-5 / UDMA-66 cables have pin 20 closed so you can't use them with the HD16.

What I'll try next is a 2,5" PATA SSD drive (Yes, they exist and Transcend seems to be the only vendor who offers these) so no SATA-adapter will be required, just a physical 44pin-to-40pin+power adapter. Hope this finally does the trick...

I'll keep you posted. Keep fingers crossed. ;)
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Re: HD16

Post by SpaceAceOne » Tue May 31, 2016 3:16 pm

Success! I got the drive (Transcend TS64GPSD330, see http://www.transcend.de/Products/No-418), also available as 32GB (TS32GPSD330) and 128GB (TS128GPSD330) which is a 2,5" PATA SSD and it works like a charm!

Everything else you need is a 44pin-to-40pin converter like this one http://g01.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB18_0IIXXX ... pin-to.jpg and the Zoom Factory Recovery CD.

All you have to do is open the unit, replace the old harddisk with the Transcend + adapter, boot from the recovery CD, let it recover the system from the CD and off you go. No hassle with any (non-working) SATA-adapters and all. :D
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Re: HD16

Post by SpaceAceOne » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:23 am

Yes, That's correct, you should not bend old cables more than necessary.
However if you stick with the factory setup (HD16 connector in the middle of the cable, CD-RW on the one end and HDD on the other end) it will be difficult to find a fitting cable.
Anyway in my case the old cable was still working fine. It was the SATA-adapter(s) causing the trouble!
See above, problem is solved now by using an IDE-SSD-drive.
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Re: HD16

Post by Jim_Fogle » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:25 pm

SpaceAceOne, Excellent news! I'm really glad you got it working! It's also nice to know that Zoom will still replace recovery cds. What is the boot up time using the SSD? How long does it take to save a typical project?
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Re: HD16

Post by SpaceAceOne » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:47 am

I have not measured the boot up time yet (will do so in the next days and post the result) but the perceived speed is not that much quicker (the ATA mode is the limiting factor here).
But at least operation is completely noiseless now which was my main motivation for replacing the drive.
Yes, got the recovery CD as a download image from Zoom-Support.
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Re: HD16

Post by SpaceAceOne » Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:21 am

Here comes the figure: Booting from flipping the powerswitch up to finishing loading the last project takes 46 seconds.
Never bothered how long it took with the standard-drive though.
Feels very (too) long anyway but as I said, noiseless operation was my main driver for the replacement.
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Re: HD16

Post by Jim_Fogle » Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:20 pm

I think 45 seconds is a comfortable power up time. That is around the same range as my MRS-8. No hard drive is definately nice.
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Re: HD16

Post by Klink » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:33 am

Just resurrecting this thread to say I tried & failed most or all of the above! Admittedly my adaptor was not the Kingwin one (mine was cheapo eBay with a Kingston 128GB SSD) but whether I connected it in the middle of the IDE cable or where the hard drive initially was, I had no joy whatsoever with error message after error message. I even tried all the different settings on my adaptor which did have some kind of master/slave jumper setup going on (no manual of course) unlike the Kingwin one I gather.

Summing up, I've given up for now but may splash out for a Kingwin sometime in the future. Will post again with results if this happens. Anyone else tried any of this recently (no posts on this thread for the last 3 years)?
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Re: HD16

Post by Jim_Fogle » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:00 pm

Does the Kingston 128GB SSD have a jumper setting for 40GB or 80 GB? I suspect 128 GB is larger than the firmware and hardware can address.

I would look at smaller drives. For example here is a 32GB drive for $17 US: https://www.newegg.com/kingdian-s100-se ... 0074-00093

One problem you may not have thought of. SSDs do not like user to use the defrag command. Instead, Windows has the TRIM command. I don't know how that affects use over time.
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http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
https://soundcloud.com/you/tracks
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... tent=music
Zoom MRS-8
Gibson acoustic 12-string, Peavey Predator, Line6 Variax, Yamaha keyboard and digital drums
2018 Band-in-a-Box, ChordPulse http://www.chordpulse.com/
Cakewalk by BandLab, Sonar Home Studio, Cakewalk Music Creator 6, Audacity
Win 7 laptop i3, 8 GB DRAM, 500GB SSD

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