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 Post subject: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:50 pm 
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Hi All,

Firstly, thanks for this great forum, this is my first post since getting the R24 ...

I've been battling with Reaper and my new Zoom R24 Interface for over a week, now, and cannot get the two working together, either recording or playing back (so I'm new to Reaper and the R24 - not a good combination, I know).

The problem is that, using the R24 in interface mode with Reaper, even after going through all sample settings, from 64 to 2048, I cannot get glitch free recording or playback of even one or two tracks. When I increase the sample rate and eventually think I'm rid of the dreaded pops and crackles, I then get the playback or recording hanging/freezing and causing a loud buzzing noise while it's frozen. The only way I can then get the screen and transport to unfreeze is to move the mouse (wireless mouse and keyboard) and that works only sometimes.

I disconnected all USB/firewire plugs before installing the R24 driver (as advised) and have kept it that way, in case any USB connections are interfering, I've uninstalled and reinstalled the R24 driver, in case that's the problem ... and I've also tested Reaper with my old Yamaha SW1000XG soundcard, to see if the problem's with Reaper ... Oh, and I tested the whole setup on a completely different laptop ... with the same problem.

I've been on the Reaper forum, to see if there are any other sufferers, and there are ... but there seems to be no answer to the problem.

Any help would be appreciated before I lose even more of my hair!!!

Regards,

Colin

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:21 pm 
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jay19458 wrote:
The problem is that, using the R24 in interface mode with Reaper, even after going through all sample settings, from 64 to 2048,


Pardon? Where are those numbers coming from? The R24 audio interface quantizes at 24 bits per (mono) sample, with sample rates of 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96 kHz. That means a SINGLE mono track is providing 1058400 bits per second at the slowest rate. The numbers you mention sound like MP3 compression rates.

Quote:
I cannot get glitch free recording or playback of even one or two tracks. When I increase the sample rate and eventually think I'm rid of the dreaded pops and crackles, I then get the playback or


If you are getting drop-outs/over-runs at 24/44.1, INCREASING the rate is not going to be productive.

Quote:
(wireless mouse and keyboard) and that works only sometimes.


With a USB receiver? Are they sharing a USB hub (note: depending on your computer, all your USB ports could be a single internal hub).

No real help, but you haven't given the specifications of the computer (processor/speed, memory, "integrated video" or dedicated, etc.)

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:27 pm 
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When you say you've played with the "sample settings", I assume you mean the buffer settings in the ASIO configuration under the Audio Device section of the Reaper preferences screen. That's usually the secret sauce in getting things to work. Some people have had good luck using ASIO4All in conjunction with Reaper, but I've always been fine just selecting the R16 directly.

You may want to use Reaper's performonce meter (Ctrl-Alt-P) to see if it can give you more information on where things may be bottlenecking. It may help you determine whether you're hitting a bottleneck on CPU, disk, or memory. If you're on Windows, the task manager also has some great performance analysis tools - I'm sure something similar exists on Mac.

Also, feel free to post more information about your computer and anything else that could be part of the performance picture.

Finally, are you including any effects on your Reaper tracks when you hit these problems, or is this just raw audio? Actually, in reading back to the original post, I suppose it's possible that you're using some sort of soft synths, which opens up many additional cans of worms. Please provide as much information as possible about what you're working with and what you're trying to do, and we'll see if we can help you figure out what's going on.

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:18 pm 
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DPC Latency Checker can help to identify problems. http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

I used to have similar problems with a laptop I had before. It was an XP computer, and my recollection is that disabling the battery monitoring was what made the biggest improvement for me.

Are you using the ReaVerberate plugin by any chance?


(Edit Oct 7, 2011): I think I've figured out the solution here and that the bottom line is that Rxx users can avoid the problems the original poster has been having by making sure their Rxx's midi input and output in Reaper's Options>Preferences:Audio:Midi Devices are disabled whenever using their Rxx as a control surface with Reaper's Mackie Control setup. The hope here is that this edit might save some who may be having similar problems from having to read all the way through this thread for a solution. (see viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17004&p=176040#p176040 for a little more detail)


Last edited by gtrdrt on Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:37 pm 
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Wulfraed wrote:
jay19458 wrote:
The problem is that, using the R24 in interface mode with Reaper, even after going through all sample settings, from 64 to 2048,


Pardon? Where are those numbers coming from? The R24 audio interface quantizes at 24 bits per (mono) sample, with sample rates of 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96 kHz. That means a SINGLE mono track is providing 1058400 bits per second at the slowest rate. The numbers you mention sound like MP3 compression rates.


Ah... based on the other response you mean the /buffer size/... Your comment about changing /rate/ is what confused me...

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:18 am 
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Sorry about the lack of detail but my signature now includes my setup.


The problems are occurring with bare recorded or imported track with no plug-ins or FX. My wireless Logitech mouse and keyboard are connected to the normal sockets (not USB) and I have disconnected ALL USB and Firwire devices.

Wondering if the problem's graphic based (although I use a separate graphics card which is basic enough to not interfere) because I can only get the screen/transport to unlock/unfreeze, when it happens, by moving the cursor with the mouse. There is then a short stutter and the tracks start to play/record again.

My tests have only been on one imported stereo wave file 'backing track' and recording one mono vocal track recorded alongside it.

I've switched off the wireless system, also.

The sample rate figures I'm quoting are from the R24 ASIO panel, using the R24 in interface mode at the 44.1 setting. I've tried all buffers from 64 to 2048 but with the same stuttering/ interruptions/freezing.

Any further pointers would be appreciated and I will check out the DPC Latency checker today. I've also used another latency checker which involves connecting my stereo outs to two inputs but the results have been all over the place, i.e. one test gives me 14ms at a certain setting and the next test it jumps to 30ms!!!

Regards,

Colin

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:03 am 
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PS Meant to say I used the Reaper performance monitor and it's never gone higher that 7% ...

Colin

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:31 pm 
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jay19458 wrote:
Sorry about the lack of detail but my signature now includes my setup.


The problems are occurring with bare recorded or imported track with no plug-ins or FX. My wireless Logitech mouse and keyboard are connected to the normal sockets (not USB) and I have disconnected ALL USB and Firwire devices.

Wondering if the problem's graphic based (although I use a separate graphics card which is basic enough to not interfere) because I can only get the screen/transport to unlock/unfreeze, when it happens, by moving the cursor with the mouse. There is then a short stutter and the tracks start to play/record again.

My tests have only been on one imported stereo wave file 'backing track' and recording one mono vocal track recorded alongside it.

I've switched off the wireless system, also.

The sample rate figures I'm quoting are from the R24 ASIO panel, using the R24 in interface mode at the 44.1 setting. I've tried all buffers from 64 to 2048 but with the same stuttering/ interruptions/freezing.

Any further pointers would be appreciated and I will check out the DPC Latency checker today. I've also used another latency checker which involves connecting my stereo outs to two inputs but the results have been all over the place, i.e. one test gives me 14ms at a certain setting and the next test it jumps to 30ms!!!

Regards,

Colin
How is your separate graphics card connected to your computer? Was I mistaken when I gathered that the computer you're dealing with is a laptop? That's what I thought you meant when you said "I tested the whole setup on a completely different laptop." That's why I brought up the thing about disabling your battery monitoring.

It sounds to me like the latency checker you used before actually measures the delay in the audio. I haven't had to use DPC Latency Checker in awhile, but, as I recall, it shows 'spikes' for devices that are causing problems. It doesn't tell you which devices are causing the spikes, though, so you have to start disabling devices to see if doing so will cause a spike to go away.


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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:40 pm 
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jay19458 wrote:
The problems are occurring with bare recorded or imported track with no plug-ins or FX. My wireless Logitech mouse and keyboard are connected to the normal sockets (not USB) and I have disconnected ALL USB and Firwire devices.


By "imported" you mean a WAV file that exists on the computer itself? And was this file "clean" on the device that recorded it when played by that device stand-alone?

If you use the computer's sound card for playback (no R24 connection at all) of these imported files do you still have the "glitches"? If so, I'd say that's evidence it has nothing to do with the R24 or the USB ports.

If only when the R24 is connected as an interface, then deeper digging is needed. Given that you mention a Pentium-4 (hyper-threaded or not?) I'm presuming WinXP. I don't think a P-4 could reliably support Vista or Win7. My desktop machine is a 3.4GHz Hyper-threaded P4 with SATA drives, and it is too slow for real-time HD video preview, but I'd have thought it could handle stereo audio with no problems.

What does the Windows Task Manager performance page show; or the processes page after reverse sorting the CPU column (needs two mouse clicks to get the descending sort, since you want to see what is using most of the CPU).

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:36 pm 
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You might try to see if you have any better performance with ASIO4ALL for your ASIO driver. You could also try some of the other Audio Systems besides ASIO (WDM, DirectSound, WaveOut). There'll be more latency with those, but you might be able to get good, clean audio with them and help determine if it might be a driver issue that's causing your problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Further to my last post ...

Just had one helluva day of it, of PC hell, but think I've found the problem ... and it might just be insurmountable with this PC.

I ran with the Native Instruments website advice that a friend pointed me towards and did everything except upgrade the chipset and BIOS drivers (put that in the 'too hard basket') but found that the probem is with the USB bus.

I used DPC Latency Checker and found that, at idle, the PC was flatlining in the green zone, with no large peaks and was reported as being fast enough for audio recording ... as soon as I started Reaper playing any small, bare audio file i.e. no FX or plug-ins, of between two and six tracks, through the Zoom R24, the red bars in DPC went off the chart!!

The files are clean ... they're official example files from Reaper.

I then ran, as it advised, the RATTV3 utility from Microsoft, which can pinpoint what drivers are causing the problem, i.e. any drivers showing over 1ms of latency and the culprits were USB.SYS, with 3.72ms and NDIS.SYS with 1.04ms.

As far as I know, the NDIS.SYS is a driver for network applications but, otherwise, it looks like the main culprit is tha USB bus. Could it be that the Zoom R24 is simply trying to get too much information through it, causing a log-jam??

I've checked and the port I'm using is definitely USB 2.0, which is stated to be fast enough for the R24.

So ... having done all the tweaks suggested by the NI site, I can't think how I'm gonna fix the problem if it's with the whole USB bus!! And that is without anything else attached to the PC. Oh, and I checked the wireless mouse and keyboard and they're not part of the problem - I was still getting it with the old mouse and keyboard attached!!

So, gents ... any suggestions??

Regards,

Colin

PS You'll see I updated my signature ... it's actually a Pentium 4, 3.2Ghz ...

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:03 pm 
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jay19458 wrote:
any suggestions??
Things that may have already been suggested? Try different usb ports? Try ASIO4ALL? Try Audio Systems other than ASIO?

Have you tried these suggestions?

What is your OS? What version of Reaper are you using?

What's the thread on the Reaper forum where you've sought help, so we can read it and maybe know some of the things you've already tried?


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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:22 pm 
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gtrdrt wrote:
jay19458 wrote:
any suggestions??
Things that may have already been suggested? Try different usb ports? Try ASIO4ALL? Try Audio Systems other than ASIO?

Have you tried these suggestions?

What is your OS? What version of Reaper are you using?

What's the thread on the Reaper forum where you've sought help, so we can read it and maybe know some of the things you've already tried?

I'm running Windows XP SP3 and the latest version of Reaper (4.02).

I haven't tried any other drivers apart from the Zoom one because ASIO4ALL is not showing the Zoom R24 as an option.

I've tried other USB ports but with the same results. Also, I've read in another thread that the Zoom R24 may only work with USB 2.0 or faster. And, as I last reported, the throughput seems to be swamping my USB port. The readout from RTTV3 also suggests that the longer the track plays, the more latency/logjam is being produced at the USB port and that directly relates to when the screen/playback freezes are happening.

The strange thing seems also to be that moving the mouse/cursor stops the freeze and the track plays again :-/ ...

The Zoom R24 seemd to be the perfect fit for me, as it performs as an interface AND control surface; and allows me to take a standalong recorder to gigs with me but this is turning into a nightmare ... Could it just be very buggy ASIO drivers from Zoom???

Colin

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:58 pm 
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I meant to mention in my earlier post that you might try another usb cord if you haven't already.
jay19458 wrote:
I haven't tried any other drivers apart from the Zoom one because ASIO4ALL is not showing the Zoom R24 as an option.
What do you mean by that? You've selected ASIO4ALL as the driver but no R24 inputs or outputs show up? Have you gone into the ASIO Configuration dialog (button on Audio/Devices pref. page) and checked to see if the R24 inputs and outputs are activated (they'll look like they're lit up when they're activated)? Also, while you're doing that, de-activate any other devices you see in there that may be already activated.
jay19458 wrote:
The strange thing seems also to be that moving the mouse/cursor stops the freeze and the track plays again :-/ ...
Maybe the problem is with the ps2 (I'm presuming) mouse and/or keyboard. Maybe try a usb mouse/keyboard?

Have you tried using your on-board graphics device instead of the separate one you're using?


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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:21 pm 
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gtrdrt wrote:
I meant to mention in my earlier post that you might try another usb cord if you haven't already.
jay19458 wrote:
I haven't tried any other drivers apart from the Zoom one because ASIO4ALL is not showing the Zoom R24 as an option.
What do you mean by that? You've selected ASIO4ALL as the driver but no R24 inputs or outputs show up? Have you gone into the ASIO Configuration dialog (button on Audio/Devices pref. page) and checked to see if the R24 inputs and outputs are activated (they'll look like they're lit up when they're activated)? Also, while you're doing that, de-activate any other devices you see in there that may be already activated.
jay19458 wrote:
The strange thing seems also to be that moving the mouse/cursor stops the freeze and the track plays again :-/ ...
Maybe the problem is with the ps2 (I'm presuming) mouse and/or keyboard. Maybe try a usb mouse/keyboard?

Have you tried using your on-board graphics device instead of the separate one you're using?

Finally got ASIO4ALL to show the Zoom by uninstalling it and installing newest version but had the same problem.

Tried several new USB cables with no joy.

Don't think it's a problem with PS2 as the RTTV3 application is showing the interuptions are being caused by massive latency on the USBPORT.SYS driver.

Haven't tried using on-board graphics as that would sap even more CPU power from the PC and the video driver is not showing up on RTTV3 as causing the problem.

Colin

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:42 pm 
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Wulfraed wrote:
jay19458 wrote:
The problems are occurring with bare recorded or imported track with no plug-ins or FX. My wireless Logitech mouse and keyboard are connected to the normal sockets (not USB) and I have disconnected ALL USB and Firwire devices.


By "imported" you mean a WAV file that exists on the computer itself? And was this file "clean" on the device that recorded it when played by that device stand-alone?

If you use the computer's sound card for playback (no R24 connection at all) of these imported files do you still have the "glitches"? If so, I'd say that's evidence it has nothing to do with the R24 or the USB ports.

If only when the R24 is connected as an interface, then deeper digging is needed. Given that you mention a Pentium-4 (hyper-threaded or not?) I'm presuming WinXP. I don't think a P-4 could reliably support Vista or Win7. My desktop machine is a 3.4GHz Hyper-threaded P4 with SATA drives, and it is too slow for real-time HD video preview, but I'd have thought it could handle stereo audio with no problems.

What does the Windows Task Manager performance page show; or the processes page after reverse sorting the CPU column (needs two mouse clicks to get the descending sort, since you want to see what is using most of the CPU).

Have never used the PCs soundcard, I've got a Yamaha SW1000XG installed, which I was still hoping to use for some XG sounds. I've tried using Reaper with it but it crackles and pops as well! Don't know if it's for the same reasons, though as it's thirteen-year-old kit!

Only other thing that's been suggested is turning off all anti-virus and malware prog's but that still wouldn't account for RTTV3 telling me the USBPORT.SYS driver's showing massive latency, whenever I press play on Reaper with the R24 connected.

Colin

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 Post subject: Re: Zoom R24 and Reaper
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:18 am 
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jay19458 wrote:
Don't think it's a problem with PS2 as the RTTV3 application is showing the interuptions are being caused by massive latency on the USBPORT.SYS driver.

Haven't tried using on-board graphics as that would sap even more CPU power from the PC and the video driver is not showing up on RTTV3 as causing the problem.
Unless I was certain that what RTTV3 shows or doesn't show is the be-all and end-all of diagnosing this problem, I would go ahead and try disabling the separate graphics card and using the onboard graphics instead, especially since it's so easy to do. I'd say the same about trying a usb mouse/keyboard instead of the ps2 (I'd even disable the ps2 port), especially since you have a not-too-shabby clue in that moving your mouse unfreezes your freezes. Ya just never know...

Are you using the latest R24 driver? You also might consider contacting Zoom to see if they may be aware of an issue with your motherboard or something.

Other than that, I think I'm stumped.


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