HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

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HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:28 pm

First post so high to all. I work on a Zoom HD16 and I love it :)

When you save as a stereo WAV file on the HD16 it gives you split stereo files L and R.

I want to get one stereo WAV file - can the HD16 create a interleaved stereo WAV file and if so how?

Surely I can get a WAV file as just one file. I just can't work out how.
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by Wulfraed » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:38 pm

nick wrote:First post so high to all. I work on a Zoom HD16 and I love it :)

When you save as a stereo WAV file on the HD16 it gives you split stereo files L and R.

I want to get one stereo WAV file - can the HD16 create a interleaved stereo WAV file and if so how?

Surely I can get a WAV file as just one file. I just can't work out how.
You have to run a Mastering operation -- the resultant Master track is a true stereo file -- manual page 42-44 (there is a section on p43 on converting the MASTER to a WAV file)
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:39 pm

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I've done that (as per p43) but the output is two files.

What steps do I take to get one single stereo WAV file?
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by nick » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:41 pm

When you burn to cd (or plug into a PC directly) you go to the Project folder (after you've created the stereo WAV file as per p43 of the manual).

Then you get two files. ..L and ..R.

How do I get one file (direct from the Zoom/mixdown)?

There are programs I can get to do it - but I think it should be an auto-feature. I just can't work out how.
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by Wulfraed » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:45 am

Unfortunately, it would take me hours to pull up the stand and unlock my HD16 from storage to perform live testing. (Can't test on the R16 upstairs as the R series creates stereo WAV files for linked stereo-pairs, not the separate v-takes)

The right-side of page 43 states that it should be creating one stereo file that can be used normally -- though page 208 doesn't show it, but does indicate the mastering step itself is still a dual-mono format.

What name(s) have you tried at step 3-4 of "Converting the MASTER track to a stereo WAV file"? I'd suggest picking something you know has never been used on the device -- Maybe date? Myymmdd.WAV. Run the conversion. And, as step 5 states -- the output is supposed to be found in the project's IMPORT directory, not the TAKE directory
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by nick » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:51 am

Yes, naming is unique/new for each track/project I do.

The Import folder might be the key I'm missing. I'll have a go on that tomorrow and see if I can find it there.

Otherwise you're going to have to pull up the stand and unlock your HD16 from storage and do some live testing ;)
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by nick » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:02 am

Well the IMPORT folder theory sounds great BUT - how can I access/download the IMPORT folder/burn it to cd?

I can create the Project onto cd but I don't know how to get the IMPORT folder.

Any ideas?

This is driving me crazy - this should not be this difficult.
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by Wulfraed » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:32 pm

You connect in USB Mass Storage mode, navigate to the project, then to the import directory, then copy the desired files off to your computer. (Manual page 161)

Burning a red-book (audio) CD will depend upon whatever software you have on the computer. Or you use the HDx CD drive to burn the MASTER track contents of the project(s). {Did Zoom really sell any HDx models without the CD drive?} Manual page 139-143.

The directory structure is shown on page 208 of the HDx manual
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by nick » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:16 pm

Thanks. I've been burning to CD.

1. CD's are now 'old school' if not almost obsolete!

2. No, I can't believe they sold the units without a cd player. If you were buying a Zoom unit then, you'd think you'd want a CD player for backups. Especially with the price of hard drives 'back then'.

I have to buy a USB cable. It took me 10 minutes just to work out I need a AB type USB cable.

I'll get the cable tonight and confirm how I go with it.

Funny how this thread probably seems like the most trivial topic on the internet however, for me, it's a MAJOR piece of a giant puzzle. The last piece. Once I've worked this out - I can send music for mastering in the requested format. It's 'kind of a big deal'. To me anyway.

Thanks.
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by nick » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:50 pm

I think I've got it.

Plugged in the USB cable and found the IMPORT folder.

Funny it doesn't burn to the Project folder on the CD but USB is more efficient.

I've sent a test file to the engineer who asked me for the file so he can confirm it - I'm pretty sure I've got what I need though.

Thank you so much for being patient enough to respond to my ongoing questions. I really appreciate it.
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by Wulfraed » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:16 pm

Since the stereo WAV is generated from the L/R master tracks (which themselves are the result of a mastering operation using the individual track/take) they may consider it superfluous when backing up a project to CD.
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by nick » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:14 pm

Do you mean the files already present as a stereo WAV file once you've Mastered it? If so where?
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by Wulfraed » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:19 am

No... Based on the directory structure in the manual, Mastering still creates separate L and R.

But since the stereo file that gets generated in the IMPORT directory is based directly off the MASTER, it could be that Zoom felt backing up the generated stereo files was not an important feature.

All hypothesis; I'd have to experiment with the full set of actions to confirm actual behavior.
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by nick » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:23 pm

Ah - thus they added the create stereo WAV file function.

They just didn't want to make it overly clear how to access the file.

Until we had this conversation - I've been downloading mastered tracks to CD - burning finished projects. (For 10 years).

If I'd plugged it in via the USB port I probably would have seen the file previously or at least realized I should have been looking in the Import folder and what that was. This is the one time I've had trouble with the manual. Other than that Zoom's help/manual I find is very good.

Seeing I couldn't find anything on the internet about this issue - coming on here and actually getting help has shown me (for the first time ever) that the internet actual has value! Up until now I thought it was solely used as an advertising medium. (I'm joking but there's too much noise and too many banner ads on the www).

Anyway - thanks for all your help. I really do appreciate it.
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by hoodoo voodoo » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:24 am

I'm wondering if I can sidestep something of the same issue to the R16, which also has the ability to create a single stereo file out of 2 mono inputs, if they are first paired prior to recording. If I'm recording say a choir or quartet using a single stereo mic, would it be advisable to initially prepare to record the individual left and right mono mics (comprising the stereo recording pair) as a linked stereo pair in the R16 ?

I'm asking this on a somewhat esoteric level, as I know that there can be infinitely small (but measurable over a long concert, say 1-2 hours) slip or slide of tracks relative to one another, when recording multiple simultaneous tracks to the R16...say an orchestra with a main stereo pair plus 5 or 6 additional spot mics, all running (recording) simultaneously. Over time such ' slips' could amount to a few millisecs timing imbalance, which could in theory lead to impaired stereo imagery ?

However, if the main pair at least were linked/interleaved as a stereo track....does that somehow ' bind together' the 2 individual mono tracks, such that this ' slippage' is minimized ? The same could be just as important when recording a single source eg classical guitar or flute, violin etc....you want those 2 mics locked together in phase as much as possible....so that precise imaging is maintained (without any miniscule form of ' image wander')

Sorry for the long winded explanation....and taking it a step further, if I were to create say 4 stereo pairs (for an 8 input simultaneous tracking recording, like the orchestra scenario above) ...would that tighten up any potential drift between tracks yet further, as there would be 4 ' stereo' tracks instead of 8 mono tracks ? Would interleaving (via linking) of the stereo sources achieve this ' lock step objective' ?

One caveat is that (I assume ?) stereo linking by definition pans the 2 tracks hard left and right, and ' bakes in' this panning (unless they are separated in the DAW afterwards) so it would be best to stereo link tracks which are likely to remain hard panned left/right in the final mix also ?
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by Wulfraed » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:49 pm

If you are using a stereo microphone (with dual outputs since you need to use two of the HD16 inputs) or a pair of Mono microphones physically placed in, say, XY orientation, then it would be advantageous to stereo-link a track-pair (remember, the HD series is a /routing/ device, any input[pair] can be fed to any track[pair]). Linking a track pair automatically sets panning to full-left/full-right and makes it a balance control for the pair, and as I recall, allows you to use ONE fader to control both tracks.

The v-takes are still mono.


The R16 inputs are tied directly to the track below them -- but the tracks directly produce WAV files appropriate to mono/stereo linkage mode, AND those WAV files can be freely moved/assigned from track to track (if you are using one microphone for multiple tracks, you have to either reassign one recording and reuse the track, or you have to unplug and move the microphone input to use a different track)

The HD16 allows for a limited number of TAKES to be in a track, but you can use any track without moving the microphone plug.

In parallel recording, there should not be ANY noticeable slip -- all tracks are going through the DSP circuit with the same clock ticks. The clock may be drifting, but that drift should affect all tracks equally. If over-dubbing, one theoretically is monitoring the previous part of the performance, so any drift in play-back would also be present in the over-dub, putting them into sync (within the performer's skill level).

Where clock rates become a factor is when using multiple DEVICES in parallel. Each device has its own clock, and those clocks may be slightly different. As a result, each device will have recorded a different number of samples over the duration of the recording. A fast clock will record more samples, and hence will be longer than a device with a slow clock (or, if looking at the files in a DAW -- the fast clock device will be "slower" compared to the slow clock).

Many years ago I once ran a test using an H2, BR-600, HD-16, Superscope CD recorder, two video cameras [video has much tighter tolerances for timing]. I used hand claps for start and end timing over a 30 minute recording session. The two video cameras were essentially identical timing. The next best device was the Superscope, which was only off by about 5 video frames after 30 minutes. The Zoom and BOSS recorders were worst, being up to 15 video frames off (and in different directions). That's half a second error after 30 minutes.

Basically, unless you are using recorders/cameras with a separate time-base generator feeding all of them, expect to have to apply time-stretch/compress on some audio streams when matching to a video.
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Re: HD16 - Create an interleaved stereo WAV file

Post by hoodoo voodoo » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:11 pm

Thank you Wulfraed, that's reassuring to know the clock applies equally to all the simultaneous tracks....and for when I need to sync audio from the R16 with video from 2 cameras, I use Power Director's "sync by audio" feature.....which appears to line up the audio from all sources together very well.

From what you describe there would seem to be no inherent benefits from 2 parallel-recorded mono tracks (say each track of an xy stereo microphone) vs the same pair stereo linked ? I think you're saying that in the R16, stereo-linking is more an "assignment association" than anything else ?
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