Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Discuss the Zoom HD and R series. Please don't "post and run". Participate in the discussion. Thanks.
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rccCrawler
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Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by rccCrawler » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:17 pm

Hi

My band uses the r16 to do basic amateur recordings of our songs.

When we play a gig, we would like to use it to record the gig.

However, the last time we tried this we had a problem, in that apparently the r16 is expecting 'consumer' line outs (-10 dbv), not 'studio' line outs (+4 dbu). This caused the inputs of the r16 to clip, even when the gain was set at the minimum setting.

I am wondering if anyone has solved this problem?

Also, would a change in mixing board help? Last time we used a Mackie 1604-VLZ4, and we are thinking of moving to a Allen & Heath MixWizard WZ4:16.

Has anyone tried the latter? Does it have the same problem with the direct outs overloading the inputs of the r16?

Thanks for any advice.
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mikethebass
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by mikethebass » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:44 pm

I used a Behringer desk with direct outs in a rehearsal room. I wasn't using the R16 but did find that I needed a 20db pad to bring the volumes under control. I was only using the Behringer for vocals.
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by rccCrawler » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:21 pm

How did you 20db pad 8 inputs? Thanks
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by Jim_Fogle » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:38 pm

The Mackie 1604-VLZ4 has two RCA (tape) outputs in addition to the eight direct TRS outputs. Use the tape outputs to record the mix you're using while you play your gig. That gives you the advantage of hearing the same mix that you're delivering to your paying customers. Just because the R16 has eight inputs doesn't mean you have to use all of them.

The $399 Zoom R16 inputs likely do not sound as good as the $899 Mackie 1604-VLZ4 with the premium Onyx preamp design.
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by rccCrawler » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:00 pm

That gives you a stereo out without the ability to alter the instrument levels so we'd rather be able to get 8 tracks.
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by Jim_Fogle » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:26 pm

rccCrawler wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:00 pm
That gives you a stereo out without the ability to alter the instrument levels so we'd rather be able to get 8 tracks.
Correct but the stereo out mix is the same mix the paying audience is hearing. If you're needing or wanting to change the mix after the fact then your original mix is likely wrong. I would think you would be more interested in giving the paying audience a proper mix in the first place. That's how you learn, you listen to the original mix and make adjustments going forward.

To answer your original question, do an internet search using the term line level attenuater" and you'll find several devices that perform that function. You'll need one for each input and price ranges from $19.99 to $100.00. It quickly gets expensive when you want to use eight lines.

Try this search: https://www.google.com/search?q=line+le ... 1YwsiS5VX8
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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... tent=music
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by rccCrawler » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:57 pm

I did find pad attenuators for 19$, and also the arts8 which has 8 lines with pads.

I respectfully disagree that you would want record exactly what the audience hears, the foh sound might require levels or eq specific to the sound qualities of the room which do not translate to headphones for instance. Given that I've always found you have to fine tune settings for individual rooms this would suggest that room affects sound so I'd like to be able to adjust for it. Just my 2c.
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by still_fiddlin » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:11 pm

I do live recordings at open mics with my Zoom H6 and always capture each track (up to 6) separately and remix for distribution. I don't control the house, for one, but as @rccCrawler says, the FOH mix is generally not going to be what you want to hear in a set of headphones. Heck, it's probably just mono in most cases. (It's probably worth capturing, but I wouldn't use it if you have the ability to capture each channel separately.)

I don't know if there's a multichannel attenuator, but if you want to splurge, just go buy the Zoom F8, or a pair of them if you need 16 channels. (ka-ching!$!). I'm going to get *one* of them some day...

Or, you can just get a new digital mixer that writes all the tracks to USB. Might be the cheapest option.
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by Wulfraed » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:21 pm

Non-sequitur diversion...
still_fiddlin wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:11 pm
I don't know if there's a multichannel attenuator, but if you want to splurge, just go buy the Zoom F8, or a pair of them if you need 16 channels. (ka-ching!$!). I'm going to get *one* of them some day...
Given that I originally bought the HD16 with the intent of eventual surround-sound for video recording [I still haven't done a surround-sound video] but having that massive wall-powered device with sensitive hard-drive isn't that conducive to field usage; so I then bought an R16 since it is light-weight, battery powered (and the lack of rhythm section wasn't a factor for the intended usage); the F8 is obviously aimed at me (though my Canon XH-A1 lacks the time-code input of the XH-G1).
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Denis247
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by Denis247 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:27 pm

I've done quite a few recordings at a club that uses an Allen & Heath Mixwizard 16:2, so I expect the direct outputs level would be the same as the 16:4 board you mentioned, and yes, it does output at +4 db.

I use two H6's, with the optional 2 input modules on each, to give 12 track recording, although for sync purposes I record one track to both H6's. I have to use the -20db pads.

Re the previous poster suggesting just recording the mix stereo output, well in this small club for a start, the drums sliders are normally just slightly advanced, there is so much sound from the stage that the pa isn't really needed for these. Also the sound is balanced for a room full of noisy people, with a lot of the sound coming direct from the stage, and isn't what I want at all, although I have used it one or twice 'in an emergency' backup scenario.

So I have 11 individual tracks that so far has handled everything.

One other point; I also run the H6's and everything else I may connect on battery power, many places prefer or even insist on this, for safety reasons.
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by mikethebass » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:00 am

The direct sound coming from stage is my main reason for not just using a feed from the live desk mix.

Tonight I'll be recording a couple of 18 piece big bands. Both have full horn sections. The venue isn't overly big so the Pa is really for the vocals (3 female) and Master of Ceremonies.

I'll be running 7 tracks for miking the instruments and 1 track taking a feed from an Aux out on the PA this should be giving me just the vocals with no reverb. It's not the ideal situation as I'll rely on the live PA for the balance of the three voices, but given the limits of the equipment it's the best available.
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Re: Direct Outs from Mixing Board

Post by Jim_Fogle » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:28 pm

rccCrawler, Denis 247 & Mikethebass,

I could not think of any reasons for wanting to record each individual channel but all of you did. Thanks for sharing your responses and enlightening me.

rccCrawler, in your follow up post did you mean the http://artproaudio.com/splitters/product/s8/ s8 by Art?

Eight attenuators at $19 each is $152 or the Art s8 retails for around $249.
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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... tent=music
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2017 Band-in-a-Box, Music Creator 6, Audacity, Chord Pulse
Win 7 laptop i3, 8 GB DRAM, 500GB HD
Zoom MRS-8
Gibson acoustic 12-string, Peavey Predator, Line6 Variax, Yamaha keyboard and digital drums

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