Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Questions and answers related to any Zoom Gear that doesn't have its own sub-forum yet. This includes any new gear that's been announced, and any old gear you've got. Please don't "post and run". Participate in the discussion. Thanks.
NucleusX
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Re: Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Post by NucleusX » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:31 am

Yeh. Was a bit disappointed about the lack of an A/B/Y mode, it has all the required I/O for it to be possible. A/B/C is possible tho. You can
have A/B or Bypass/A+B, but if you require both modes during a song, you have to stop and physically turn the mode dial. Might be a mode
BOSS will upgrade the LS-3 with. A footswitch or expression socket would've been quite a handy feature too. But I doubt that would happen,
it already has 6 TS sockets in it. They're one of the few pedals I've kept as a constant on my pedalboard over the years, they're as essential
to me as tuners are to most people. I like the switchers BOSS have, I can imagine them together with a few of those new 500 series pedals of
their's on a pedalboard, would look pretty sweet. Considering how I've slowly evolved and refined my pedalboard layout over the years, a single
large switcher wouldn't really fit the current scheme the way i'd need it to. One thing that I did to help me conceptualise and keep track of the
bigger picture, was to draw it all out as a block diagram/schematic. Just be prepared to go through a few revisions before you're finally satisfied
with it. I use the LS-2's now, but I did have a simple mixer setup for blending the outputs for a while, worked well. The maximum number of
parallel chains is mainly limited by the number of inputs you have on your mixer. I would also avoid connecting outputs directly in parallel with
cables alone to achieve your blend, this usually results in phase conflicts. Outputs really should be summed and buffered with some type of mixing
stage. Can't tell you exactly how to get to your idea of "delicious", as that's a subjective matter, can only really say that comes after some time of
experimenting with its configurations in different ways. All that general serial knowledge you already have still applies for the most part.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Post by stubbsonic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:29 am

Thanks for all the info and your thoughts, NucleusX (do you have trouble with people mispronouncing your name, "NuculusX"?)

You're right that having the ability to manage the flow of signal in a pedal path seems AS essential as anything.

At first, I was a little intimidated at the fact that there is a better and worse serial order of effects. I had always instinctively thought that a Wah Pedal should go AFTER distortion because it would give the wah more harmonic content to work with. But I see that some people put their wah before distortion and it works fine. Fortunately, with the MFX that I have, I can rearrange the serial order without having to re-patch anything.

With a parallel path, I'd be splitting by several possible criteria- like a frequency-crossover split (to process high and low bands separately), or to take a particular effect and run it separately into it's own FX path -- while running a separate path either clean or with a different concept (e.g., a flanged/filtered distortion running parallel with clean, or a clean signal into an octave drop pitch-shift then 100% wet reverb-- then a little of that blended back in with the clean signal, or several delay lines all run through different effects paths.

But you raise an interesting point about phase. Since all these digital boxes employ some degree of buffering, there'd probably be some latency resulting in phase offsets. Seems like care would be needed to make sure the paths were carefully designed in that regard.

I wonder if two MS-100BT's run in parallel would have the same buffer and run without phase issues.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Post by stubbsonic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:53 am

Did a quick googlin' and found a couple interesting options-- just different function sets than the LS-2.

First, the Xotic X-Blender acts like an aux-send/return on a mixer allowing you to dial in the wet/dry amount.

Cog Effects in the UK has a custom shop with a couple interesting line-selectors on their page.
https://www.cogeffects.co.uk/custom.php

If you scroll down, you'll see
"CAWr02" Custom Line Selector
"Rogue Leader" Custom Line Selector

Both look kind of interesting. I could see getting an LS-2 and the X-blender-- that is, if someone just handed me a bunch of money.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Post by stubbsonic » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:44 pm

I just did a short dig into my old digital mixer's MIDI capability and found out that it responds to program changes by calling up scenes. DONE.

I also happen to have an old FC-50 that I was contemplating selling, but if it'll call up scenes on the VM-3100, I can work out lots of serial, parallel and more complex set-ups. It won't be very portable, but maybe if I'm clever I can put part of it in a rack.
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NucleusX
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Re: Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Post by NucleusX » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:31 pm

There are general rules of what FX should be placed where for the best results, and i still find it useful to remember this
as an over-arching rule when building parallel chains, but there is also room for bending those rules to some degree. Its
a good template to start with while you later experiment with bending the rules at specific points. At first, i just mirror image
the 2 parallel chains exactly for a starting point, they always start in phase, and then slowly make the changes and corrections
to one chain till both chains compliment each other, rather than conflict. I can see your idea of splitting frequency bands to
different paths could possibly complicate things further, idk, never tried that. I know there's a split effect in the MultiStomps
which i haven't put to much use yet, is that what you would use to achieve that ? Kinda curious to know ! 2 x MS-100BT's work
fine in parallel into a mixer if that's what you're wondering. And you're correct in saying care should be taken when creating
chains. I wouldn't say latency becomes a problem with my setup, it responds instantly, but when you introduce differences
in the parallel sections with certain modulations, delays and reverbs, one parallel chain can be phase offset from 0 - 360
degree's to the other chain. Modulations like chorus, phaser and flanger seem to be the worst offenders. 2 in parallel can
result in strange variable comb filtering effects if phasing hasn't been addressed properly. As i understand it in the hardware
world, and assuming modelling adhere's to these facts, each buffered stage (or FX block) will invert the phase of your signal
180 degree's, by default, and without even taking into account what effect is in use. So your signal goes though many phase
changes through the FX blocks before it finally hits the outputs. The mission here, is to make sure both path phases arrive at
the outputs together in unison, and that highly depends on carefully crafted chains as you have observed. Midi foot controllers
are cool. The Line 6 controller i have for the POD HD Pro can be used as a universal USB midi controller, i got it paired up with
Amplitube atm, but a pity there's no onboard midi sockets on it for direct midi connections. Sounds like you have some toys
to play with there. Not sure how you aim to put it all together, but earlier you referred to things as a routing "matrix", which is
a pretty accurate description now that i think about it. You wanna set the routing up in a frame, so that you can reconfigure
your chains with the pedals alone, and without having to rewire anything physically. This isn't so much of a problem for me using
the MultiStomps, as each pedal can be reconfigured as an entirely different effect, rather than a fixed single function effect pedal.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Post by stubbsonic » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:07 pm

I'd make a distinction between "inverted phase" and "signal-timing-offset", With the former, the entire waveform is upside down, and you have potential cancellation across the entire spectrum. The latter involves small delay values caused by dsp or digital buffers, where you have cancellation affecting frequencies at and and around the wavelength of the offset. So for micro-delays it would be kind of phasey notch cancelling, and a little larger delays it would be fixed-frequency flanging. I don't think splitting into two frequency bands would create those issues because you'd be isolating the bands on each path.

On the MS-100BT, I end up using that frequency splitter just as a dual-shelf EQ because it doesn't give you two paths inside the unit. I just tested to see if it split the bands to L & R outs, IT DOES NOT. So it isn't really a splitter at all, however, unlike a dual shelf, you can turn the high or low band all the way down, so it does act as a high pass or low pass. The MS-100BT does have that Line Selector unit that sends some signal straight to the output, and some signal on to the next effect in the chain-- effectively giving you some routing possibilities, but in a pretty limited way. Putting the Splitter after the Line Selector would theoretically allow you to run pre-LS FX straight out, and post-LS into the splitter to effect lows or highs as desired.

Your point about different mod FX messing up tone is an important one. I play a fair amount of bass guitar (always clean & dry, only EQ & occasionally compression); mod fx have to be designed specifically for bass so they don't kill low end. But as you say, experimentation will indicate what works well and what doesn't.

This thread has gotten away from the topic of dynamic range, but it's really useful and interesting. Thanks for all your thoughts on it.
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NucleusX
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Re: Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Post by NucleusX » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:47 pm

Maybe not create issues, but you would have to take phasing more seriously from that point onward's in the chains. No split from L to R ?
Well that's just silly. Sounds like a simple bass/treble tone effect than a splitter. I can see the Line Select has some experimental potential
for extra routing. I find myself using it for effect bypassing more than anything. I emailed Zoom a couple years ago suggesting an A/B/Y effect.
I feel they could've created more routing effect options with the MultiStomps, as they're more targeted towards people with pedal boards, who
are a lot more likely to put the extra routing features to use. You'd think routing would require a minimal amount of coding effort ?

It's pretty quiet on this side of the forums, I see you posting threads regularly and always seem eager to discuss Zoom pedals which I'm
always down with, so i thought why not. Threads die pretty quickly round here lol. From your username, I have a feeling i might know you
from a different platform ? Someone I know online would fit that username very well ! (He also has trouble pronouncing "Nuculus")
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stubbsonic
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Re: Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Post by stubbsonic » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:16 pm

As I mentioned above, since the Splitter can turn the low or high band down to zero (which really is OFF), then it is a dual-shelf-EQ with adjustable split frequency, as well as a low-pass or high-pass with adjustable cut-off. But yea, a splitter? -- it aint.

I imagine the Stomp series has structural roadblocks to managing multiple streams. It's too bad, especially for the MS-100BT which has stereo ins & outs.

I think my dream box would have 4 ins (with separate gains), 4 outs and the ability to split/merge/etc. with a really flexible mix/matrix. There'd be 4 expression pedal inputs, and internally a mod-matrix with global Triggered ENVs, LFOs, and Envelope followers. It'd be the size of a G3n, but one wide display, a bunch of assignable knobs and deep editing. But I digress.

I comment quite a bit on Synthtopia, Discchord, MasteringVAST, and MOTUnation.
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NucleusX
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Re: Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Post by NucleusX » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:09 am

stubbsonic wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:16 pm
As I mentioned above, since the Splitter can turn the low or high band down to zero (which really is OFF), then it is a dual-shelf-EQ
with adjustable split frequency, as well as a low-pass or high-pass with adjustable cut-off. But yea, a splitter? -- it aint.
Ahh ok. Still, considering all the available FX i have in the MultiStomps, it would provide a unique and useful application as is.
stubbsonic wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:16 pm
I imagine the Stomp series has structural roadblocks to managing multiple streams. It's too bad, especially for the MS-100BT which
has stereo ins & outs.
Agreed. Although, most of those road blocks are eliminated if you have more than 1 or 2 MultiStomps together. The possibilities are
more exponential than linear as you add more of them. Guess we all have our own idea's and limits on whats acceptable for the job.
stubbsonic wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:16 pm
I think my dream box would have 4 ins (with separate gains), 4 outs and the ability to split/merge/etc. with a really flexible mix/matrix.
There'd be 4 expression pedal inputs, and internally a mod-matrix with global Triggered ENVs, LFOs, and Envelope followers. It'd be the
size of a G3n, but one wide display, a bunch of assignable knobs and deep editing. But I digress.
Heh, the more i think about it, the more i realise just how much i haven't tapped into its potential. Imagination helps a lot there !
stubbsonic wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:16 pm
I comment quite a bit on Synthtopia, Discchord, MasteringVAST, and MOTUnation.
No worries, 2 different people then.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Zoom FX have dynamic range, others lack!

Post by stubbsonic » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:44 am

I"m going to start another thread/conversation about FX order and FX routing.
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