Effect Order and Routing Ideas

Questions and answers related to any Zoom Gear that doesn't have its own sub-forum yet. This includes any new gear that's been announced, and any old gear you've got. Please don't "post and run". Participate in the discussion. Thanks.
NucleusX
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Re: Effect Order and Routing Ideas

Post by NucleusX » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:22 pm

stubbsonic wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:42 am
Even with a patcher, you can't get instantaneous. You still have to go around and futz with stuff (I'm imagining).
With a lot of current patchers yeh, but i don't think this is an issue with the new BOSS ones we discussed. Pretty sure they're
advanced enough for instant patch recall, like it generally is in MFX pedals. They iced the cake on one of the units with integrated
FX which further beckons its presence, surely it can do "scene" like functions. IDK about features like tap tempo and on/off trails.

Digitech have mostly to me made clean sounding gear, and their chassis are usually built pretty well, but i don't think that's
where the problem is. They're not really innovating as often as they used to, just iterating. Apart from that Apple iPad pedal
monstrosity they made, their native UI's are fairly basic. These days it seems just sounding great isn't enough, they gotta hit
ALL the bullet points right in an all-round package to be as competitive and compelling as possible.

I use the Plate reverb a fair bit now, seems like a good workhorse to keep as a constant for general subtle reverb.
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NucleusX
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Re: Effect Order and Routing Ideas

Post by NucleusX » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:11 pm

Extracted from BOSS website.

"The MS-3 is packed with decades of BOSS compact pedal and multi-effects know-how, and offers an ultra-efficient design that
lets you dial in inspiring sounds right away. There’s a backlit LCD that clearly shows patch/bank numbers and parameters, plus
quick-access knobs for editing and status indicators for all loops and effects. And with 200 patch locations, you have ample
memory for storing effects and control setups for instant recall."

"One of the ES-8’s key features is its innovative routing flexibility, which provides the ability to easily rearrange the order of a
chain of stompbox effects. This gives professional guitarists the ability to access a wide array of effect combinations, offering
total creative freedom to achieve the unique sounds that they desire. In addition, the ES-8’s parallel chain function increases
the effect combination options further, thereby expanding the final sound variation capability exponentially. What’s more, all
of these programmed configurations can be saved for instant access during a live performance."

I really like the concept and execution of these things. Had my setup been different, i'd seriously consider one of them.
Last edited by NucleusX on Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Effect Order and Routing Ideas

Post by stubbsonic » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:04 am

NucleusX wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:11 pm
I really like the concept and execution of these things. Had my setup been different, i'd seriously consider one of them.
I was looking at them as well. It really is a fantastic product idea, in a very plain looking chassis.

The GP-10 I got has a potential parallel path, but it is gotten to in a weird way.

The 13-pin GK connection accesses the modeling function which is the upper path, which can have its own effects. The regular magnetic pickups (from the 13-pin, or standard 1/4 input) feed the lower path, with its own effects. Then the two paths join, and effects can be added post-merge. It's a specific kind of parallel processing.
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NucleusX
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Re: Effect Order and Routing Ideas

Post by NucleusX » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:37 pm

Admittedly, Im a bit ignorant when it comes to those kind of pedals, as I've never used them. They call for a particular
kind of guitarist, I'm just not one of them. Parallel chains in a small unit like that strike me as surprising, but being what
it is, it's probably something expected ? My first thought was, well it's nice to have that, but will the unit fill out both
paths with enough FX before the DSP runs out ? Always a limit i look out for in general. Some pedals out there give you
all the options to work with, but then cut you off at the knees when it comes to flexin it's DSP, negating the options.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Effect Order and Routing Ideas

Post by stubbsonic » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:15 pm

What makes that unit cool is the models (lots of electric guitar pickups, and some acoustic instruments)-- the effects are the usual Boss bread & butter effects. Most are function specific (like EQ, gate, comp, amp), I think there's two called FX which have a longer list that include some EQ, comp, mod fx, etc. It's not limitless, but before the signal leaves the box, it can be made pretty deluxe.

The pitch shifting (as with ALL effect units) is weak. So when you choose the "12 string" model, which relies on shifting things up an octave, those don't track very well and sound pretty bad.
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NucleusX
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Re: Effect Order and Routing Ideas

Post by NucleusX » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:07 pm

Sounds like a powerful little beast, be nice to have all the staple BOSS effects in one place. You're hard pressed just
going a tone below or above without artifacts on the more standard units, couldn't imagine shooting for a full octave
unless it was a subtle blend, or specifically for dive-bombing. Does the extra pickup improve its tracking abilities ?
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stubbsonic
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Re: Effect Order and Routing Ideas

Post by stubbsonic » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:26 pm

No, the pickup doesn't seem to help the tracking. At the end of the day, it's just six pitch shifters (one for each string) and it's using the same process to analyze the signal.

It's not terrible, though.

Actually, now that I think of it, the Zoom MS-100BT had a couple things that tracked pitch better, might have been a synth though.

In any case, it is always a trade off between Tracking accuracy, Response time, Dynamics, and Sound quality. You can sometimes get one of those four qualities.
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NucleusX
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Re: Effect Order and Routing Ideas

Post by NucleusX » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:04 pm

Watched an in-depth review on the GP-10 on youtube after reading your last post, and this struck me as a Variax-like
arrangement after a while. I think more accurate polyphonic tracking was the primary purpose of the Variax, as it has
an individual pickup for each string as-well. I don't know how far the similarities go between the 2, but I'm guessing
there's unique issue's that come with having a secondary pickup for synthesis, and blended with a traditional pickup.
I also noticed tight increments in the parameter settings for scale length. Suggests to me that intonation might be a
a critical factor to consider with them ? could be wrong, just guessing here lol. Thankfully my pitch needs are simple.
I primarily just use them for convenient changes in tuning standards, as long as i don't go too far either way. The
Variax would still be of some benefit to me in that regard, but i can't justify having it if i can do almost as good now.
It's just overkill for how i use it. Can see all that being most beneficial to people that frequently use harmonizers,
pitch shifters, octavers, alt tunings, ect. Now I'm wondering how much the POD HD can support the synth stuff.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Effect Order and Routing Ideas

Post by stubbsonic » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:21 am

It's funny, I hadn't really thought of how the "synth access" is like the variax, but you're right.

Yes, in the GP-10 settings you give it string length and you tell it the pickup position relative to the bridge piece. For my Godin, there are "Piezo" options which eliminate that step. The string length and the pickup position or piezo type, help the modeling know what it is converting from before it converts to something else. It seems like a very effective system. I doubt it tracks the entire string length (as you play on low frets or high frets) perfectly as it does it's modeling, and the models themselves might not be accurate in every range, but it's still pretty impressive.

For me, I'm often called upon in shows to switch between types of guitars (electric, nylon, steel ac., etc.) so it will eliminate the need to change instruments, and I can get much closer to the right "vintage" for a given show/song. Though I'd need to set things up carefully.

I agree that the pitch shifters seem better when you aren't going more than a 3rd or so.

I had heard that palm muting wasn't very effective with piezo saddles, and that is true, but it's not all or none, it's still sort of half-way there. Fortunately, if I need the mag pickups, I can just use those. It's a nice balance of technologies.
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