R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Discuss the Zoom HD and R series. Please don't "post and run". Participate in the discussion. Thanks.
User avatar
selbalicious
Jedi Zoom Master
Jedi Zoom Master
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:01 am
Location: Kennewick, WA

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by selbalicious » Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:20 am

That's a great question! The only way that I can think of is to adjust the actual patch itself and save it to a user location by adjusting its wet/dry mix. I think you can take an effects patch and adjust it so that it's so "wet" that there's really no dry amount left anymore.

Anyone else? Maybe a trip through the manual where it walks through the effects parameters would tell us.
1 x
Kevin B. Selby
https://www.facebook.com/TheJKDuo/ <-- Live Performance
http://kevinselby.com <-- Original Music (free downloads if you're smart enough to hack the music player...HAH!)

Wulfraed
Yoda
Yoda
Posts: 2946
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Kentwood, MI

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by Wulfraed » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:50 am

selbalicious wrote:That's a great question! The only way that I can think of is to adjust the actual patch itself and save it to a user location by adjusting its wet/dry mix. I think you can take an effects patch and adjust it so that it's so "wet" that there's really no dry amount left anymore.

Anyone else? Maybe a trip through the manual where it walks through the effects parameters would tell us.
For an insert effect positioned in the [input]->[effect]->[rec-track] path, there is no wet/dry mix control that I know of... Many of the modules within an effect algorithm have output level controls, but that is not a bypass control -- it is just what it says "adjusts signal level after passing module"

Only way I can visualize blending between wet and dry (heh -- and I am "visualizing" it as equivalent to PhotoShop's layer opacity control) would be to record dry to track "a", set the effect path as [play-track]->[effect]->[rec-track], and bounce "a" to track "b". THEN adjust the relative fader positions of both "a" and "b" during playback to get the desired blend.
0 x
--
Baron Wulfraed
IISS Elusive Unicorn (detached)

Superscope PSD-300; BOSS BR-600, Zoom HD16cd, Zoom R16, BOSS BR-800, Zoom H2n
Now to (re)learn to play an instrument

Lanikai S-C, SMC-E; GoldTone Banjo-Uke; Flatiron 1C, A5; Big Muddy M1-W; Ovation MM68AX, CSE-44; Orpheus Valley Fiesta FS; Taylor NS-72ce, T5-S1; Musima (4st, 20 fret, tenor-tuned) banjo; bongos, dumbeks, bodhrans, hand drum, tambourine; recorder: soprano, alto, tenor; Cedar Flute (5 sizes); Pennywhistle (3 keys); Casio keyboards

Jon1
new to this board
new to this board
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:08 am

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by Jon1 » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:30 pm

Wulfraed wrote:Only way I can visualize blending between wet and dry (heh -- and I am "visualizing" it as equivalent to PhotoShop's layer opacity control) would be to record dry to track "a", set the effect path as [play-track]->[effect]->[rec-track], and bounce "a" to track "b". THEN adjust the relative fader positions of both "a" and "b" during playback to get the desired blend.
Well, yes, this is the same method I used in Audition (except I would bounce the track dry and process the effects in afterward).

Applying the effect during a bounce should give the same result. But the effect has to be able to be set at 100% wet (0% dry). And yes, blending by adjusting faders.

I guess the other option, is just do a bounce to another track with the effect set how you like, and work with that. Then hang on to the original track - either on one of the "tracks", or from what I understand, just keep the original audio file in the R16's memory, but not loaded on a track. So if you want to do it differently later you've still got it.
0 x

tou
new to this board
new to this board
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:27 pm
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by tou » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:50 pm

Hi,

I wish I read this tutorial before... To understand how the effects are working on the R24/R16,
I attempted to draw the engineer's diagram of the R24 by reading the manual...

That was quite instructive to me! Anyways, I've done it now so maybe I should share...
Comments are welcome!

Note: it difficult to get a proper jpg file under 256k... so it is a bit blurry.
The pdf I tried to post first was much smaller but the file was rejected.

---------
This is my one-pager cheat-sheet: the diagram with these notes on the back.

Recording session settings:
PROJECT->NEW->RATE = 44.1 kHz | 48 kHz (new project only, only 44.1 kHz allows to use effects)
PROJECT->REC->BIT LEN = 16 bits | 24 bits
PROJECT->REC->BOUNCE TR = Mute | Play
PROJECT->REC->REC MODE = Overwrite | Always new

Per track settings:
PAN/EQ->PAN = L100 to R100 | Center
PAN/EQ->EQ HI|MED|LO->Gain = -12dB to 12dB
PAN/EQ->EQ HI|MED|LO->Frequency = 40Hz/500Hz to 18 kHz
PAN/EQ->EQ HI|MED|LO->Q = 0.1 to 2.0 (MED only)
PAN/EQ->REV SEND = 0 to 100
PAN/EQ->CHO SEND = 0 to 100
PAN/EQ->FADER = 0 to 127
PAN/EQ->ST LINK = on | off
PAN/EQ->INVERT = on | off

Parallel effects settings:
EFFECT->Reverb
EFFECT->Chorus

Per track parallel effect send/return settings:
TRACK->REV SEND = 0 to 100
TRACK->CHO SEND = 0 to 100

Wet/dry recording of insert effect:
EFFECT->Insert->REC SIG = wet | dry

Insert effect (stereo) input settings:
EFFECT->Insert->INPUT SRC = Input N | Input N/N+1

Insert effect (stereo) track settings:
EFFECT->Insert->INPUT SRC = Track N | Track N/N+1

Insert effect master track settings:
EFFECT->Insert->INPUT SRC = Master
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1 x

User avatar
selbalicious
Jedi Zoom Master
Jedi Zoom Master
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:01 am
Location: Kennewick, WA

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by selbalicious » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:37 pm

I meant to comment on this many moons ago...but got busy and finally came back to it.
Thank you for drawing this! I'm not an engineer type and I really don't think in terms of the way this is drawn, BUT, I know that other people DO think like this and no doubt the drawing is going to give them the "aHA!" moment so that they understand the signal routing.

Once again, this is why forums exist. Very nice addition to our little R16/R24/Rnn knowledge base!
0 x
Kevin B. Selby
https://www.facebook.com/TheJKDuo/ <-- Live Performance
http://kevinselby.com <-- Original Music (free downloads if you're smart enough to hack the music player...HAH!)

User avatar
kilroy55
new to this board
new to this board
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:30 am

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by kilroy55 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:16 am

waiting for my R24 in the mail.man this forum rocks........
0 x

verve92
new to this board
new to this board
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:41 pm

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by verve92 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:39 am

Excellent.
Thank you!
Brilliantly explained and worded.
One thing though. Is this effects architecture the same as the HD16? Or are there salient differences and if so, what?
0 x

SamanthaNaomi
new to this board
new to this board
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:59 pm

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by SamanthaNaomi » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:04 pm

I read the tutorial (and it was very good!), but I still have a question.

My problem is: I have a track (the vocal) in which I want to make a delay effect, not throughout the track, but ONLY at certain time-points, p.e:

"Time for change" change-change-change-change....

Do you know what I mean? Just repetition of a word or a part of a sentence.

So now I have recorded the track (on input 4) without any effects. I tried bouncing it to another empty track (like input 3) while pressing reverb/send and selecting "delay", but nothing happened.

What am I doing wrong? Or is it easier to this on the PC with software they have given me (LE Cubase 5) ? I thought the Zoom could do all this without the PC.

Please help, if you can :(
0 x

User avatar
m24p
Jedi Zoom Master
Jedi Zoom Master
Posts: 1315
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by m24p » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:36 pm

SamanthaNaomi wrote:Or is it easier to this on the PC with software they have given me (LE Cubase 5) ? I thought the Zoom could do all this without the PC.
That type of thing will be MUCH EASIER on the PC. I'm fairly confident you could theoretically do it on the Zoom.
0 x
Hi Zoetrope! [url=http://soundcloud.com/m24p]Soundcloud[/url]

User avatar
selbalicious
Jedi Zoom Master
Jedi Zoom Master
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:01 am
Location: Kennewick, WA

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by selbalicious » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:04 pm

Since the Zoom has plenty of tracks (conceivably!), I would create a vocals track JUST FOR THAT ONE WORD (every time it occurs in the song).

Then you have the following two choices:

1. If you aren't using the send/return chorus/delay, set it up for a typical delay patch and ONLY use it on that one vocal track (or two if you doubled your vocals). IF you used the tempo clicks on the R16 itself and your music IS in time with the actual metronome and tempo for the Project, you can enjoy "time-based" echo effects because there are several "segments" of time you can choose for the echoes to show up on (e.g., 1/4 note, 1/2 note, etc.).
2. Use the Insert effect and dial up a delay that works and again, if your song actually matches the tempo you can do cool stuff. At this point you could choose to record the vocals WITH the delay Insert effect (e.g., "wet"), OR you could record those vocals dry and then either master the song on the R16 (leaving the Insert effect tied to the Track(s)) *or* bounce the vocals THROUGH the Insert effect onto destination tracks and burn the echoes in that way. Your choice.

OR, indeed pull the .wav's out to a DAW and do it that way (probably muuuch easier...but heck...it's fun to see if you can do it on the R16 unit itself).
0 x
Kevin B. Selby
https://www.facebook.com/TheJKDuo/ <-- Live Performance
http://kevinselby.com <-- Original Music (free downloads if you're smart enough to hack the music player...HAH!)

SamanthaNaomi
new to this board
new to this board
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:59 pm

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by SamanthaNaomi » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:25 am

Thank you for all the good advice ! First I will try it with the Cubase. Problem with Cubase is that it gives false notices of errors that disappear on their own, depending on the "mood" of it or time of the day ;) it is mad.
0 x

tornado
new to this board
new to this board
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:57 pm

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by tornado » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:20 pm

@ll, especially selbalicious

I study your instruction to use the send/return effects but my problem still is that I am german :?
I don't understand how I put these send/return effects to my microphone channel. selbalicious wrote that the send/return effects must be "on" - both of my effects are "off" and I don't know what I have to do to change them "on". The jog wheel does not function and steps to the rigt, left and so on do not function.....I don't know :oops:
Normally I have playback music in input 1 and 2 (there the jog wheel for stereo link off to on works) and my microphone in input 4 or 5....what shall I do to get some chorus delay on input 4 or 5?
The instuction told me that everything is very easy and it is possible to get the effects on recorded tracks - but what do I have to do????
I am so sorry but it is very hard for me as a german to understand.
Is there anybody who can tell me step by step what I have to do? I would be very glad.
Thank you very much.

Best regards

Tornado
0 x

User avatar
selbalicious
Jedi Zoom Master
Jedi Zoom Master
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:01 am
Location: Kennewick, WA

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by selbalicious » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:43 pm

You have to hit the ENTER button to turn them ON. Don't feel bad...many many people miss this. It's not obvious.

Once you hit the ENTER button, they will turn ON and possibly be at "0". THEN use the jog dial to turn up the amount of effect.

Happy effecting!
0 x
Kevin B. Selby
https://www.facebook.com/TheJKDuo/ <-- Live Performance
http://kevinselby.com <-- Original Music (free downloads if you're smart enough to hack the music player...HAH!)

tornado
new to this board
new to this board
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:57 pm

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by tornado » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:33 am

Hi Kevin,

I am sorry, but it doesn't function anyway.

I load my project then hit the send return effects bottom. It shows me No 03 - Bright Hall (for example). Then I hit the enter bottom and I see "send reverb off". I hit the enter bottom again and I see No 03 - Bright Hall...and so on.
I can hit the enter bottom as much as I like but the send reverb doesn't change to "on".
And I couldn't choose any channel because I like to have the reverb only on input 5.
That is why I asked for a "step by step - help" - something I do wrong and I don't know what :oops:

Best regards

Tornado
0 x

User avatar
selbalicious
Jedi Zoom Master
Jedi Zoom Master
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:01 am
Location: Kennewick, WA

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by selbalicious » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:10 pm

ah...I see what's happening. I meant to mention this in the last post.

There are TWO different menus where you use the Enter button to turn ON or OFF the Send/Return effects.

The first, as you have discovered, is in the Send/Return menu itself. You are GLOBALLY turning the Send/Return effect ON and OFF when you perform the following steps:

1. Push "Send Return Effect" button.
2. For now, make sure you're on Reverb and if it says "03 - Bright Hall" then you're good to go. It's ON.
3. Go ahead and push the Enter button a few times to notice that it will turn OFF (and basically display "Off") and then if you hit Enter again it will say "03 - Bright Hall". Leave it at the setting where it displays "03 - Bright Hall".

The steps above apply to the Send/Return Reverb on a GLOBAL level. In other words, you are turning Send/Return Reverb on FOR ALL TRACKS TO BE ABLE TO USE. It's like you have an external Reverb effect unit sitting in your rack. You reach down, turn it ON, and dial up a "patch" called "03 - Bright Hall". Just because you did that doesn't mean ANY track will have reverb on it because you've only turned on the reverb unit itself. You haven't told each track how much of the track you want to "send" to the external reverb unit.

NOW...pay close attention: because you are working with a Send/Return reverb effect, you have to go to EACH and EVERY Track that you want some reverb on and turn send/return reverb on FOR THAT TRACK.

So in your example, you want some send/return reverb on Track 5 (you'll notice I didn't say Input 5 because technically, the send/return effect is applied at the Track level even though when you hook a guitar into Input 5 you can then hear it with reverb on it...look at the diagrams attached to this post again to see what I mean).

Because you have Send/Return reverb turned ON "globally" (the steps above), you can now go turn it on for a given Track and dial in how MUCH you want on that track.

Soooo...you would perform these steps:

1. Push the Pan/EQ button.
2. Push the Play/Mute/Rec button for Track 5 to "select" Track 5.
3. Use the down arrow (under the Enter button) to navigate downward (about 8 clicks) until you get to REVERB SEND.
4. It will EITHER say: "off" OR some number like "20".
5. IF it says "off", you must push the Enter button to turn it ON. Once you do that it will either say "0" or some other number.
6. Dial it up to, say, 30 to give yourself plenty of reverb for the track.
7. Experiment with pushing the Enter button to turn it OFF and then back ON (and the number shows).
8. Leave it turned ON (e.g., the number is showing...say, 30).

IF both areas of the R16 have the Send/Return reverb ON, and you've dialed in some for Track 5, you SHOULD be hearing your nice lovely guitar going through some nice reverb.

Remember for Send/Return effects: whether the guitar has already been recorded to the track OR you are simply strumming the guitar going through the Input, you WILL hear reverb.

Now...for those of you using the R16 for live performance, you can use the global Send Return Effect button to GLOBALLY turn OFF the Reverb for ALL tracks simply by having it called up and ready and use the Enter button to turn it OFF. This will turn the Send/Return reverb OFF for ALL tracks but it will conveniently leave the individual tracks still turned on and at their respective "level" of reverb. For example, Tracks 1, 2, and 3 might be vocal tracks for a trio and they all have 30 dialed in for Reverb. Turning the Send/Return reverb OFF GLOBALLY, will not do a thing to each Track setting. When you hit the Enter button to turn it back ON GLOBALLY, everything resumes and you have reverb on your vocals. This is useful for between songs when you want to talk to the audience but you don't want to mess with individual track settings. Just turn the Send/Return reverb OFF at the global level and poof...all your reverb disappears and you don't sound all muddy and reverbey. When the song is ready to start, hit Enter key to turn it back ON globally and now all tracks have their reverb back again. I wish there was a footswitch method to do this cuz I don't always remember to look over to the R16 and turn reverb back on.

Hope this helps!
0 x
Kevin B. Selby
https://www.facebook.com/TheJKDuo/ <-- Live Performance
http://kevinselby.com <-- Original Music (free downloads if you're smart enough to hack the music player...HAH!)

tornado
new to this board
new to this board
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:57 pm

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by tornado » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:11 pm

Hi Kevin,

I am very thankfull that you give me so much help - thank you very much.

I think the main problem was that I was waiting for "send reverb ON" SHOWN on the display - like it is shown on the display when I have to push the jog wheel to turn the stereo link ON. This is shown on the display and I thought that it must be the same when I work with the reverb effects.
Today in the morning I pushed the pan/eq button to put some reverb on my input 5 and I got my chorus delay (I don't know which style) - WITHOUT showing me the word "ON" on the display. I hope that you understand what my problem was. I was still waiting for the word "ON" shown on the display :oops:
So now I have to learn how I choose some different effects and how much intensity I need.

Again, thank you very very much. And if you have some spare time please listen to my first experiment this year ;)

Best regards

Tornado/Susan
0 x

tornado
new to this board
new to this board
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:57 pm

Re: R16-Tutorial-Send/Return effects VS. Insert effect

Post by tornado » Fri May 25, 2012 1:26 pm

@ll

Maybe there is someone who can help me (again) :oops:

My next problem is that my songs which I've recorded with the Zoom R16 are too low.
I record my karaoke wave on line 1 and 2, then my vocal on line 3 (now with reverb ;) ) and then I mix the master channel and record it on it. I can't send more loudness to the master channel because it will overdrive then. On the zoom it sounds good this way.
But when I listen to the song on my computer with windows media player or on my mp3 player it is so low that I couldn't hear the real and right sound. I push all the volume controls on the top but also the maximum is tooo low :(

It is possible to get more loudness on the master channel without overdriving?

Thank you for your answers.

Best regards
Tornado
0 x

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests