Zoom Gn series Seamless Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Questions and answers related to any Zoom Gear that doesn't have its own sub-forum yet. This includes any new gear that's been announced, and any old gear you've got. Please don't "post and run". Participate in the discussion. Thanks.
Nhoj
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Zoom Gn series Seamless Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by Nhoj » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:44 pm

Wish Zoom add Delay and Reverb tails/trails between patches/bank feature with the next firmware update
Last edited by Nhoj on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by stubbsonic » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:41 am

I wonder if it is even possible without redesigning the hardware. I suspect if they COULD have done it with the current hardware, they would have.

I'm guessing it requires either lots of processor overhead, or some additional data buffer-- so the taps and tails can be stored and run out of a buffer while a patch is being swapped out. If that is the case, then the processor does have to calculate the next X seconds of reverb instantly and buffer it.
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NucleusX
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by NucleusX » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:39 am

Doubt it. I believe trails are deeply dependant on hardware limitations. Firmware alone couldn't resolve this.
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Nhoj
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by Nhoj » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:57 am

NucleusX wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:39 am
Doubt it. I believe trails are deeply dependant on hardware limitations. Firmware alone couldn't resolve this.
The question is will Zoom do it on the next flagship if it will come.
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by stubbsonic » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:56 pm

There are some boxes that are doing this-- synths and effect boxes, so it is possible. I guess in the "budget" world, it is harder to come by. But yea, I think it would be on a short list of essential features of the next big thing (if/when there is one).
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by Nhoj » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:59 pm

stubbsonic wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:56 pm
There are some boxes that are doing this-- synths and effect boxes, so it is possible. I guess in the "budget" world, it is harder to come by. But yea, I think it would be on a short list of essential features of the next big thing (if/when there is one).
its the best curious feature if Zoom will do that. Maybe it will need lots of processing power or maybe higher new processor.
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NucleusX
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by NucleusX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:22 am

Could be worse. Not sure about the newer Gn pedals, but Zoom pedals in general to me seem to be fast
and seamless enough while switching between patches, even if a few mightn't support trails. Trails is a DSP
intensive task, and maybe required too much DSP headroom to make it work in the G5n/G3n. The fact that
they allow fewer simultaneous FX slots (and limited in other ways in comparison to other Zoom examples)
tells me Zoom have highly focused on DSP occupancy. This helps to produce better realism and clarity in
simulations, but it also takes the lions share of DSP, leaving little available for anything else. This appears to
be mostly the opposite with the older G5/G3/MultiSomps. They have trails, fast patch switching, allow more
flexibility with simultaneous effects. This balance and trade-off between fidelity and function is a conscious
design decision all manufacturers have to make when matching DSP chips with their simulation algorithms.

A while back, i was trying to figure out what DSP chip the newer pedals had. I couldn't, and still can't find any
information clarifying it. No-one on the forums at the time wanted to take off the lid to find out lol. :lol: I had
a hunch Zoom might've developed new algorithms for the newer G5n/G3n, but reworked the ZFX4 chip from
the older G5/G3 and MultiStomps, instead of developing a new "ZFX5" chip, which would have drastic changes.

If anyone with a G5n/G3n knows the answer, or daring enough to find out yourself, don't hesitate to post it !
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by stubbsonic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:08 am

I opened the lid on my G3n, but unfortunately, the only part of the PCB that is visible is the B-side. Didn't feel like pulling out the boards. I'm not even sure I would be able to tell what the chip was if I saw it.
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NucleusX
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by NucleusX » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:13 am

It would be hard to miss. Should be the biggest square chip, pins on all 4 sides, and ZFX printed on it.
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by stubbsonic » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:56 am

I probably would have been able to recognize the CPU, but I still didn't feel like removing a couple other boards and the main board to be able to view it. I'm not that curious. I did look around for other clues but didn't see anything.

FWIW, the solder was kind of mixed. It was generally neat, but some solders were dull (like a cold solder), and it wasn't as meticulous as some other kinds of circuits. Perhaps normal for this type of device.
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Nhoj
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by Nhoj » Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:31 am

NucleusX wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:22 am
Could be worse. Not sure about the newer Gn pedals, but Zoom pedals in general to me seem to be fast
and seamless enough while switching between patches, even if a few mightn't support trails. Trails is a DSP
intensive task, and maybe required too much DSP headroom to make it work in the G5n/G3n. The fact that
they allow fewer simultaneous FX slots (and limited in other ways in comparison to other Zoom examples)
tells me Zoom have highly focused on DSP occupancy. This helps to produce better realism and clarity in
simulations, but it also takes the lions share of DSP, leaving little available for anything else. This appears to
be mostly the opposite with the older G5/G3/MultiSomps. They have trails, fast patch switching, allow more
flexibility with simultaneous effects. This balance and trade-off between fidelity and function is a conscious
design decision all manufacturers have to make when matching DSP chips with their simulation algorithms.

A while back, i was trying to figure out what DSP chip the newer pedals had. I couldn't, and still can't find any
information clarifying it. No-one on the forums at the time wanted to take off the lid to find out lol. :lol: I had
a hunch Zoom might've developed new algorithms for the newer G5n/G3n, but reworked the ZFX4 chip from
the older G5/G3 and MultiStomps, instead of developing a new "ZFX5" chip, which would have drastic changes.

If anyone with a G5n/G3n knows the answer, or daring enough to find out yourself, don't hesitate to post it !
you mean that the G5 G3X and other older zoom multi have trails/tail between patches and banks?
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NucleusX
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by NucleusX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:35 pm

Nhoj wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:31 am
you mean that the G5 G3X and other older zoom multi have trails/tail between patches and banks?


My bad, only the MultiStomps have them. Which is strange, seen as tho they use virtually the same internal DSP
hardware, FX algorithms, and reduced complexity. Although, it may have been added to them later via firmware ?

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index ... l.1270877/
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Nhoj
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by Nhoj » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:31 pm

NucleusX wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:35 pm
Nhoj wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:31 am
you mean that the G5 G3X and other older zoom multi have trails/tail between patches and banks?


My bad, only the MultiStomps have them. Which is strange, seen as tho they use virtually the same internal DSP
hardware, FX algorithms, and reduced complexity. Although, it may have been added to them later via firmware ?

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index ... l.1270877/
Thats why its not added until now, curious if Zoom have new flagship multi on the works
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NucleusX
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by NucleusX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:31 am

Yeh. Trails is a missing premium feature like an FX loop, which was what i was really waiting
for. The G5 not having one was what put me under the impression a bigger flagship was on
the way. But the G5n obviously wasn't it, more of a lateral sidestep than an evolution.

The thing with adding support for trails later, is that there needs to be enough DSP headroom
to begin with, and usually a feature that's deployed in the first initial firmware's.
Shoe-horning trails in later into firmware without that headroom requires them to manage
and juggle other aspects of DSP usage, where trade-offs will have to be made to have it.

This is mainly why i don't think it will happen. If it wasn't planned initially, then there's a
high chance it'l stay that way for good, unless major complaints force them to re-consider.
Last edited by NucleusX on Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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stubbsonic
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by stubbsonic » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:09 am

Theoretically, they could create firmware that allows for some class of effects-- anything with a delay or reverb tail-- to trail through a patch change. It could be made to work as long as both the current and next presets only use a fraction of the total available processing. But that's of some limited usefulness and not worth the development resources.

Two multi-effects units and an AB switcher. But then you are sort of defeating the feature of a non-pedal board.
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NucleusX
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by NucleusX » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:41 pm

A few years ago when i had a G5, i teamed it up with a couple MultiStomp pedals, one before and one
after. Had me pretty much covered with most things. The MS-100BT at the time was handling delays
and reverbs with trails. Probably why i failed to remember if the G5 had trails or not lol.

I wouldn't sit around waiting for an unlikely firmware update. If it's really that important to you, you
can work around it in ways similar to what i was doing, if you can afford the extra pedal expense.
The MS-70CDR or MS-100BT placed post G5n would almost be the perfect candidate for such a role.

https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/multist ... verb-pedal
https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/multist ... -bluetooth
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Nhoj
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Re: Zoom Gn series Delay/Reverb Trails/Tails between patches and banks

Post by Nhoj » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:40 am

NucleusX wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:41 pm
A few years ago when i had a G5, i teamed it up with a couple MultiStomp pedals, one before and one
after. Had me pretty much covered with most things. The MS-100BT at the time was handling delays
and reverbs with trails. Probably why i failed to remember if the G5 had trails or not lol.

I wouldn't sit around waiting for an unlikely firmware update. If it's really that important to you, you
can work around it in ways similar to what i was doing, if you can afford the extra pedal expense.
The MS-70CDR or MS-100BT placed post G5n would almost be the perfect candidate for such a role.

https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/multist ... verb-pedal
https://www.zoom.co.jp/products/multist ... -bluetooth
I dont know if Zoom will have a new multi effects flagship, btw im still liking and enjoying my G3Xn
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